Beer and Algae: Brewing a Greener Future
Intro Music until 15:00
Lucy: Hello, welcome to Science in Focus. Beer and Algae: Brewing a Greener Future. I'm Lucy Smith. You might know me from Triple J. And before we get into tonight's online event, I do want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land in which this event is taking place. The Gadigal People of the Eora Nation and pay my respects to elders past and present. And I also extend that acknowledgement to the place in which you are currently watching this online event. Thank you so much for being with us. This is a great treat in the midst of National Science Week, supported by Young Henrys, Deep Green Biotech Hub, we've got the University of Technology Sydney on board and inspiring Australia as well. Before we get into the panel and before you get to meet some of the heavy hitters in this field, we are going to take a tour of the brewery of Young Henrys. And you can see some of the algae that is currently going down in the back there. It is going to be taken through by Oscar McMahon, who's the co-founder of Young Henrys. And you've got Janice McCauley on board, who is a researcher from the Climate Change Cluster. So let's get into it. Enjoy. Take it away!
Oscar: Hey, my name's Oscar. I'm one of the co-founders of Young Henrys.
Janice: And I'm Janice and I'm a research associate here in the Climate Change Cluster at the University of Technology in Sydney.
Oscar: So I'm about to take a scientist for a brewery tour.
Janice: So where does the beer, the brewing process start from, like what's the first step?
Oscar: Ok, the first step is malted barley grains. You can actually eat these if you want, have a little try.
Oscar: Oh.
Janice: Oh wow.
Oscar: Yeah, kind of like Weetbix?
Janice: Yeah, that's really good!
Oscar: So malted barley grains are basically ... it's barley that's been harvested, the malting process is basically wetting the grains so the grains start to germinate. I think it's like the first phase of germination, it's some enzymic change within the grains. They're then dried and toasted so that they basically, they stay in that sort of same sort of state. When those grains are milled, they are cracked apart so that the starches can sort of come out of the husk. We travel that up into the Brewhouse, where we add it to water. We generally add water between 55 and 72 degrees.
Janice: Ok, is there a reason why you're so specific on the temperature?
Oscar: It's a really odd thing. So 55 is the starting. There are a few different temperature levels between 55 up to around 60, 68 where the starches will convert into maltose.
Janice: OK.
Oscar: So there are a bunch of different sugars that will actually be created in those different temperature levels.
Janice: Right.
Oscar: So different types of malted barley grains will actually create different sugars. So different beers, you will actually have different stages of heating.
Janice: Ok.
Oscar: So you bring it in, you mix it with the water, you stage it up through a few different temperatures, you let it rest. A brewer will then check the liquid, make sure that all the conversion has happened. We'll basically send what here's like a ... At this point in time, it's like a really, really wet porridge. They will be basically then send this through into this large concertina type thing.
Janice: Oh, my goodness! Yep.
Oscar: Which is basically a hydraulic press. This squeezes all of the liquid, which is now called ‘wort’ out of the grains. So the almost dry biscuits of grains drops out onto this conveyor belt. And that's actually what we send off to farmers.
Janice: Oh, right.
Oscar: Yeah.
Janice: What do the farmers do with that grain?
Oscar: They feed it to cattle.
Janice: Oh right.
Oscar: We have fed pigs, chickens, goats and dairy and meat cows. And we've always donated it actually ever since we started, you know.
Janice: How does that compare to the normal feed? Like, is it much better for them?
Oscar: As far as we know, that brewers' grain, as a supplement to, especially cattle feed, is really good for cows.
Janice: Oh excellent! That's really good, combining one process with another process -
Oscar: Yeah.
Janice: - waste product come in. I mean, it's got a very useful...
Oscar: Some brewers at really large scale actually sell their spent grain.
Janice: Oh right.
Oscar: Yeah, yeah exactly. Whereas we see it as something we've used, we've gotten what we want out of it. So we pass it on. So from here, the liquid then runs off into the kettle.
Janice: Which one's the kettle? This one?
Oscar: So that's the kettle. It's basically like a... It's a steam jacketed, you know, stainless steel vessel with a calandria in the middle. That is basically designed to create a really good rolling boil, basically to kill off any lactobacillus that might have come in on the grains. Also, boiling intensifies the sugars, caramelises sugars. At this point in time, you also add hops. So. Hops are a flower.
Janice: Oh, wow. Do they have a smell? Oh, yeah!
Oscar: So they're grown in very specific climates. Most of ours come from Tasmania or Victoria. This one is called Victoria's Secret.
Janice: Oh, wow.
Oscar: You smell that sort of passionfruit, a little bit spicy, a little bit fruity. So, hops create acidity, they create bitterness. So when you add hops to beer, it will actually start lowering the pH of the beer, which basically makes it a more stable product, means that no known pathogens can actually live in a beer, as far as I know. But it also, adding hops creates flavour and aroma. So originally I think hops were added to beers as a stabiliser and then that has become a really important part of the flavour profile. And modern beers are very hop focused. That it's, we put a lot more hops into like a Newtowner than someone would have, you know, put into a German lager 100 years ago.
Janice: And so you can tell us about the different sugars at this stage, and then hops here, do they both contribute to the flavour or just mainly the hops?
Oscar: So different sugars will add different colour, different body weight, different mouth feel and different flavour.
Janice: So they're very important as well, to control that stage, as well as control this stage.
Oscar: In this stage, we're starting to add bitterness, spice, aromatics. Once we've finished boiling that, we put the whole mixture into what's called a "whirlpool", weigh off and we will then add another hop addition. That's when you're really pushing more aroma. After fermentation, you can actually do another addition of hop, which is called a Dry Hop, which is an odd name, for when you're adding, you know, hops to a large liquid, but that is when you're really getting those bright, lighter floral notes and a lot more sort of resonance in the mouth. Now, it's really interesting that all of these different variables, the timing of when you add hops, you know, like five minutes to 10 minutes, can really change how it will impact the flavour. Once you finish boiling, you actually need to cool the beer down really quickly because the isomerisation, which is the creation of bitterness, that will actually continue while -
Janice: Really quickly?
Oscar: - yeah, so while that liquid is still hot, that bitterness will continue to build. So we chill it down. And also, yeast being quite a fragile thing, you can't put yeast into a hot beer.
Janice: No, it won't like that at all!
Oscar: No. Exactly. You'd basically get a whole tank of Vegemite. So come, I'll show you the yeast tanks.
Oscar: So once the hot beer has come out of the whirlpool, we run it through these hoses, it comes through a heat exchange which basically cools it down to around 18 degrees. We run it past these yeast tanks. So this is our lager propagation and that is our ale propagation. These are both ale and lager strains that are unique to Young Henrys. We were, as far as we know, we're the only people that are using them in Australia.
Janice: These particular yeast strains?
Oscar: Yeah. So we always ... this is a really important part of the brewing process. Obviously, yeast creates fermentation, which will, you know, obviously create alcohol and change wort into beer. But the difference between an ale and a lager yeast will really impart different flavours, different finish, different body weight as well. So yeast health becomes a really, really important part of not only the profile of our beers, but the ability to make, to replicate good quality beers. So yeast farming is a really important part of the brewery experience.
Janice: That sounds like a really, an odd thing to do, like, you know that, do you know the process of yeast farming?
Oscar: Well, we, we have a guy up in the lab who basically every day is looking at cell counts in yeast colonies under a microscope and always making sure that this is kept at a healthy biomass, that we're only ever pitching the correct sort of amount. But this is an inline doser.
Janice: Oh, that doses the yeast into the ....
Oscar: Yeah, actually, it actually doses yeast in line as the beer is running into one of these tanks. So that we're getting the correct amount of yeast into the wort stream for the volume of beer that we're making. And so they will have done a cell count and they know, OK, well for the amount of cells in that tank at this point in time, we need to run that for X amount of seconds to dose the correct amount for a healthy fermentation without creating too much wastage.
Oscar: So it's a really interesting, really interesting thing
Janice: It comes in from the bottom, does it?
Oscar: Yeah, literally.
Janice: Is it the whirlpool? And then it comes into the fermenter where we've got our yeast and then, you're dosing the correct amount for the volume of the beer as well.
Oscar: Yeah.
Janice: And you quality control that by having that person monitor continually your yeast cultures and ...
Oscar: Every day. It's, it's kind of funny to think that all of these different tanks of beer, they get checked every day, they are scrutinised, they are looked at under microscopes. They're tested, they're tasted, they're smelled.
Janice: Not something you think about in a beer. You just drink the beer, you've got those home kits at home, you just add the things, wait, and ... But the quality control that goes into and maintaining the quality of each beer ...
Oscar: It's, it's actually really fastidious. And the funny thing is that beer has this really, like, macho big persona. But the creation of beer is actually, it takes finesse, it takes delicacy. And it actually takes a lot of you know, you need to be, you need to be like a good data collector. You need to be fastidious with your cleaning. You know, you have to be really meticulous. Like, it's a, it's a, it's a very funny thing that maybe the persona of beer is disparate to the actual making of it sometimes.
Janice: Yeah.
Oscar: You know?
Janice: Yeah, that sounds correct. As I'm looking at all the processes and they're like, well, it's actually really delicate to control the taste of the beer that is coming out. And then if you find like, say, you've created a new flavour, like, you want to recreate that and you want to make sure that you can create that each time.
Oscar: Absolutely.
Janice: You need to know exactly what you did and control that process.
Oscar: And we also need to factor in we're using natural ingredients. You know, we're using triple filtered Sydney water. We're using yeast, which is, you know, constantly colonising. And, you know, the numbers are changing every day. We've been in drought for however many years. So the grain changes, hops change season to season. They're only ever planted once and they're harvested once a year. So in amongst all of those different things, you're also having to deal with ...
Janice: ... The quality of the product coming in, and that's the product that is subject to the natural variability outside. 'Cause they come in, again you've got to control your quality of beer and so you have to monitor -
Oscar: Yeah.
Janice: - as they come in as well.
Oscar: So if a brewer ... One of these tanks we're standing next to, that's going to be four brews' worth. Right? So if a brewer is brewing the first brew of today, they will check all of their data points along the way. If they are noticing that a certain, you know, maybe the sugars are high, maybe the pH of the water is low, they will then make it an adjustment on the second brew, possibly an adjustment on the third, so that basically by the end of it, the tank is in line. So there can actually be, you know, on the spot alterations that need to be done on the day or week to week, stuff like that. So one of the things I love about brewing is that you need to have enough science know-how to understand all of these things going on. You need to be creative. But you also sort of need to be a tradesperson. It needs to be a lot of logic. And, you know, it's physical work.
Janice: Exactly. The science and the physical mix together in a really nice way actually.
Oscar: And also to come up with a recipe, you sort of need to be creative. So it's a really nice mix of, you know -
Janice: - you need to know what is the purpose of each stage and how, as you said before, you got the different, the sweetness, aroma, bitterness. And you need to know why it's creating those flavours at each stage -
Oscar: Yeah.
Janice: - to adjust them.
Oscar: Absolutely.
Janice: It's a really intricate time, actually. Much more than just putting all the ingredients together and just putting it away
Oscar: Absolutely! Like it's almost like anyone can make a cake, but it takes a really skilled person to make a really beautiful cake. I kind of think it's the same thing. I can, I can make a beer recipe. Our brewers can make incredible beer recipes, you know? They're very um, it's a very different thing. And it's good. It's good. I mean, in the early days, there was only sort of three of us and we were doing everything: brewing, kegging, delivering, sales, all of that.
Janice: Quality control!
Oscar: Well, quality control was something that we grew into. You know, we just didn't have the capacity to do it. And it's so nice now, you know, doing tastings of our beers and seeing how consistent they are, talking about very small variables that we need to adjust. And actually, the quality is so good. Yeah. Our brew team do a lot better than we did.
Janice: That's really fascinating. So it's really fascinating because you're talking about one particular process here, so you've got the yeast, you've prepared this lovely sugars out in that other room, and they've come into here and the yeast are consuming those sugars and they're producing carbon dioxide and the alcohol, which is very important in the beer -
Oscar: Absolutely.
Janice: - and then we've got from my side of, my perspective, we've got algae that is actually doing the reverse process which is, it wants to consume carbon dioxide and wants to create sugars. And it wants to give you oxygen. So -
Oscar: When you say 'create sugars'...?
Janice: Create sugars? So basically in carbon dioxide, in our air, if there is a carbon molecule, that's what we call 'inorganic' and we can't eat it to get energy, we need it to be converted into an 'organic' carbon molecule. So in our glucose, all those carbon molecules in there, it's put into a form that we can eat it, so that's the glucose, that's our biomass that we're, that we're collecting, the plant, like when you grow a plant and you've got the vegetables, you've got all those beautiful sugars in there that we can eat. And so that's creating that energy for us that we need to survive. Because we can't harvest sunlight and carbon dioxide, we can't just grow on that, we need to consume something. So we need to consume the products that algae and our plants and our trees give us. It's a really nice, I think, a symbiosis here, that we've got one process happening and we've got the completely reverse happening over in the other corner of the brewery.
Oscar: Should we, should we head over?
Janice: You just showed me your bioreactor, which is pretty impressive, over there. But this is my bioreactor, and I think it looks, oh maybe a little bit lovely. It's got a lovely colour! Glowing.
Oscar: It's a lot more calming, than ours.
Janice: Yeah! I think, you made an analogy about it being, was it a physical job, and there was intricate science and I'm thinking maybe this looks a bit masculine and a bit -
Oscar: I agree with that.
Janice: - then you've got something a bit more intricate on this side of the fence.
Janice: So here, what we have here? We've got our algae and it's absolutely just, just the high CO2 concentration that's on brewery floor. It's just, it's loving it, just loving that atmospheric carbon that it's absorbing it. And as I said before, it's using light to convert that inorganic carbon into organic molecules that we all know as glucose.
Janice: And, and when we get glucose and we get those organic molecules, you're creating food, you're creating that bulk, that biomass. And what we can do from that is we can, we can use that. We can use the fibres in our plastics, certain molecules, the bioplastics. We can use the nutritional components as I said before, all those, it's got high protein, all the essential amino acids that we need to maintain our health, as well as all really good polyunsaturated fatty acids. So like your DHA and your EPA, so all those fatty acids that are promoted in your fish, they say eat two serves of fish per week to maintain optimal cardiovascular health. Well, these are the original producers. This is where the fish are getting their DHA from.
Oscar: You listed, you listed about like, four tablets I need to take!
Janice: And I know, just have a green smoothie every morning -
Oscar: Green smoothie, ok.
Janice: - that's probably a good start! As I said, we need to eat to survive, so we need to eat - we can't survive on sunlight. So we need to eat those organic molecules that plants produce. And that's what algae is doing, taking that inorganic carbon in our atmosphere that we're constantly pumping out into the atmosphere. We have a problem where we're creating a warming due to our increased climate emissions due to our industry. And we're doing that at a rate that's far greater than what we can do to, to get that carbon and take it back into storage. Like we're really disrupting what we do know with the carbon cycle and we're tipping the balance, we're just putting too much into our atmosphere and we just can't strip it out of our atmosphere.
Janice: And so algae play a really important role in doing that. Just in our oceans alone, they contribute to 50 percent of the oxygen that we breathe. Just the microalgae that's in that top layer, surface layer of our oceans, they contribute, like literally every second breath we take is due to algae in our oceans taking that carbon dioxide and converting it to oxygen.
Janice: Algae in our oceans, play such an important role in our ecosystem and basis of all our foodwebs, so they're controlling our animals and our food production in the oceans. And what we're doing is we're utilising that system, that ability to take that carbon and sunlight and create, take energy literally, anything that we can do whatever we want with. And I think that, that's the perfect intro into the panel discussion of how we can utilise algae and how can we use it to address big global issues as well, and to move, to move forward in the way we do things and just be more accountable of what we do, within, within your own companies and industry just maybe think about what you're doing with your waste and how can you do things differently, because we need to be sustainable for the long term. We need to look after our planet and our health, but we also need to feed people. We need, we need products. We just need to do it in a in a more sustainable way. And the technologies are there. And I think it's the biggest thing we have to do is that changing mindset: getting people to have the discussion to talk about these things and to just create change. Get more people involved, so you get people to listen.
Janice: So that's really perfect, I think that's what the panel is going to further discuss. Like, how do we do this? Like, how do we overcome those challenges from ... There's always a way that people have traditionally done things and all the sudden we say, no, no, you need to do it differently. It's better. It's better, but you've got to make it appealing to them and show them the benefits that we can, we can get from, from doing our, like doing our practices differently.
Oscar: You need to give someone their light globe moment, right?
Janice: Exactly. Yeah.
Oscar: Their green light bulb moment.
Janice: Yeah. Stimulate their light bulb moment in their head and then something's gotta click and then motivate them to, to go down that path of looking after our globe and our society in a sustainable way and looking after the planet for our future generations as well.
Panel discussion starts at 37:22
Lucy: And a big thank you to Oscar McMahon and Janice McCauley for taking us through that tour as part of Science in Focus. We are talking Beer and Algae: Brewing a Greener Future. And I think the key word there is 'future' because climate change is one of the biggest things affecting our future. That's not news. And you would have seen just there, taken behind the curtain, through Young Henrys Brewery. Right next to me here, this little guy teeming with algae. We are seeing real, real change right here within this brewery and a way in which we can be sustainable in the future. And we can use these methods to really think about what we're doing within our industries. And when you look at this, you think, is this born out of a sci-fi film? It looks surreal, but it was born out of a commitment to climate change and to coming up with methods for climate change as well and fighting that. And I'm really excited because we've got some brilliant minds on board to talk about that, to talk about how we can adapt businesses, how we can adapt the industry to collaborate for a greener future. And if you have a question, if you want to submit something, you can do so by the comments section under this video. Be nice. We're going to get into the panel right now. And I want to introduce you to all the incredible people that are currently doing amazing things in their field to create sustainability. So let's start on my left, from left to right. So first up, we've got Dr. Mark Liu. Now, Dr. Mark is a fashion and textile designer who is an innovator in zero waste fashion. We have Peter Ralph, who is a professor of marine biology at UTS, the executive director of the Climate Change Cluster in the Faculty of Science and founder of the Deep Green Biotech Hub. We've got Jesse Searls, who is the head brewer at Young Henrys. And finally, we have Emma Bowen, who is the president of Pocket City Farm that's an inner city farm in Camperdown. So I don't want to cut your grass. I guess what I want to do is to start off by saying, if you could each begin with a little bit about your role, expanding on what I've just said. But also, in a nutshell, what made you interested in sustainability and addressing climate change in your particular industries? Because we've got a bunch of them. So, Mark, if we could start with you?
Mark: I'm Mark, and I'm a fashion designer who brings science to fashion to make the industry more sustainable. About 10 years ago, I was almost like the poster child of sustainable design. And then I realised what would happen to the clothing after we threw it out, even if we tried to recycle and optimise it. And I realised we needed to do more and we needed to hit up scientists and build these new teams and make these amazing collaborations and pioneer new things. And that's why I found myself here.
Lucy: Peter.
Peter: So I suppose I've been working in science with algae for 20 years, but I started out my career looking at coral bleaching and Antarctic sea ice. And so I was working out what was happening to the planet, not fixing the planet. And about seven years ago, I thought, what I want to do is work with industries and I want to find opportunities where we can solve climate change using industries. And I think this is a fantastic example of, you know, science working within industry to fix problems. So, yeah, this is one, one of many industries that I want to fix.
Lucy: Absolutely. And we've got Jesse as well.
Jesse: Yeah g'day, I'm the head brewer here at Young Henrys. And I sort of have the pleasure and the privilege of working for a company that's really sustainable minded. And that applies to a lot of my job and a lot of my team's job. So, you know, it's a really fantastic thing that we get to do every day. My background is pretty varied. I've had about two or three careers before this, but this is definitely what I've found is my passion and the fact that we're combining science with something, an end goal that is something very tangible and you can hold in your hand and enjoy, while doing the right thing by the planet is a fantastic thing. So thanks.
Lucy: And Emma.
Emma: Ah yes, so I'm one of the co-founders of Pocket City Farms. We run a quarter acre market garden, growing veggies and educating students just about a kilometre from here in Camperdown. I was, I used to work writing about sustainability and food. And I guess I got to the point where I was frustrated with a lot of talk about things. And I was just like, let's just actually try and set up a farm. We need urban farming. We write about how much we need urban agriculture but no one is, was at that point, really trying to do it in Sydney. So we just gave it a shot.
Lucy: So we talk farming, we talk fashion very briefly as well. And I really like what you touched on, Peter, as well. The fact that this is kind of coming up with solutions that all these different industries and roles can play in climate mitigation and adaption. We are, of course, going to get a little bit more into that. But Jesse, I think you need to kick us off. What is this thing? What is sitting next to me? Why?
Jesse: Well, you know, it's really hidden that well that we've put, put out this thing that it's actually algae, but in real, real fact, it's uh so we're growing some alien embryos out the back.
Lucy: *singing*
Jesse: That is our algae culture, that I think, I believe that was just harvested from one of our bioreactors about an hour ago. But, we have two 400 litre algae bioreactors out the back, which you would have seen in the tour of our brewery. And we feed them with one of our waste products, which is carbon dioxide. And yeah, they're a real conversation piece. As you can see they're quite amazing looking and interesting.
Lucy: And why do you have it here in this brewery, like what made Young Henrys want to take this on?
Jesse: Well, the project sort of started quite a long time ago, it was a number of years. And, I believe UTS approached us, or we may have approached you I'm not exactly sure. But we obviously wanted to do something involving algae because there's all this science out there that sort of yet to really take effect of how just how important an effect algae can have on the world in terms of as a food source or an energy source or what have you. But, yeah, we sort of wanted to do something with algae and it kind of went through a few different life cycles. And it ended up that UTS sort of identified a couple of strands of algae that grow very well in a CO2 rich environment. One of our biggest waste products or by-products of fermenting wort. So the process of actually fermenting what we brew is carbon dioxide. So the fact that we can use that and harness that as a food source for the algae to then, you know, have some sort of impact later on down the line is a really cool thing. And it also lessens our carbon footprint quite substantially. So it's, it's been a great thing. And to actually see it sort of come from this little idea and then all the meetings that had to happen before it actually being implemented and done, and now those things sort of live there and we take care of them just like we would any sort of any batch of beer that we brew is really cool. And the fact that they're actually doing a really good job for the planet is a really cool thing.
Lucy: Yeah. Yeah. What, I guess stripping it back, Peter, what is algae and what role can it play in response to climate change? We've gotten one example of how businesses can harness this, but yeah. What role can it play?
Peter: Okay so, so algae, there's 300,000 species on the planet. So there's, there's algae growing in ice. There's algae growing in hot springs, there's algae growing in sewage. They grow everywhere. So there's this huge diversity of them. The role they play in the planetary systems is they made all the oxygen for us. So it's really, really important. Well, half the oxygen, every breath you take, one breath comes from a tree, the other breath comes from algae. So there's algae in all of the oceans, there's massive amounts of production. But I think it was, it's the idea that we can bring this into an industry. And where Jesse was going was, he's take- he's making a waste product. We can create a circular economy here where we can make value out of a product that they have to get- well, to get rid of it by putting into the atmosphere. And what we can do is we can take it and use it and make something with it. So this is how we can change industries by using their waste. And this is a really powerful new thing that we need to start doing more in Australia. Europe's really on top of it, but Australia is just starting.
Lucy: And it's interesting that it is something that's relatively new. This is something that you've been talking about for years, the potential of algae, two years ago. And some people might even recognise this, two years ago, you did a panel with Vivid, Young Henrys about the potential of algae. So as someone who has been researching in this field two years ago. Tell me about some of the changes that have happened since then.
Peter: It's massive, it's massive, the changes that have happened in, in Sydney, in New South Wales, in Australia. We've had a very, very dramatic increase in business interest, in opportunities, who's getting involved in it in just two years. Globally, things are moving forward so fast. And I think it's, it's the industries are just on the cusp of being economical to, to take on sustainable new sources of protein, carbohydrates and oil. So we've made some dramatic changes in the technology and that's going to make it economic. So two years has been phenomenal.
Lucy: I'm sure, for some people as well, there's a real almost novelty factor to the fact that you're seeing Young Henrys in the same sentence as the Deep Green Biotech Hub. So, Jesse, I want to put this question to you: the Venn diagram of algae and brewing beer, where does it connect? Why, why do you think, you know, this chemistry is kind of a good, a good format for this to happen?
Jesse: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. Like, to me, brewing is sort of a, really the, the coolest sub-genre of biochemistry because the end product is beer. And brewing. Really all it is, is creating an atmosphere that an organism can then healthily go through its life cycle to create what then becomes beer. So what we're effectively doing with the algae is, is very similar to that, is that we're creating an environment in order for the algae to live and thrive. But what the difference is, we're creating the environment with our waste product, which is, as Pete said, CO2. And rather than that going into the atmosphere and sort of contributing towards global warming, we're actually feeding that to the algae. And then the algae then is producing oxygen. So you can kind of compare it quite well in that, yeah, it's all, it's not, we're just facilitating this thing to happen. We're not actually doing it ourselves. It's down to the algae, yeast and beer. But yeah, it's a pretty cool thing and it has a lot of comparisons, I reckon.
Peter: The other point that you need to raise is that you're experts at keeping industrial organisms alive. If we had gone to any other industry, the paint industry or plastic industry, we would have had to have taught the people how to grow the algae, whereas brewers know how to get yeast alive. They got all the plumbing, they understand gas, they understand everything. So it was a perfect match to start working with, with a brewery because they actually get how to keep an organism alive. So it was really easy to work with them.
Jesse: They say that being a brewer is 80 per cent being a janitor. But it's actually, that's a misunderstood lie. It's actually about 95 percent. So what Pete's saying is very true. We're very good at keeping things clean and algae, you know, obviously needs a controlled environment. That's really what it comes down to, the same as beer when you ferment, you know, a high nutrient rich source with something that will just eat anything it can, it has to be very much looked after and that's the only thing that it can consume. So, yeah, very, very similar.
Lucy: So you've chatted about the ways that I guess using algae to capture carbon dioxide works pretty well, particularly in this setting. So how do you see this being rolled out to other breweries, to other beverage companies? And have you had much interest so far?
Jesse: Um, yeah. I mean, like when you, when you see those things as two of these big columns, which again, you would've seen in the video, it looks pretty impressive. But in terms of the scale of what is happening in the world and, it's very, it's minuscule and what we're doing is proving a concept which I believe we've proved pretty well to the stage at the tap. So there are breweries out there in the world that are literally, you know, a thousand times bigger than us. And what that means is they're contributing a thousand times or if not exponentially more to, you know, climate change and all that stuff. So the fact that if we can prove that it's not even that hard to be able to do this and that you can do it yourselves and it doesn't take a huge amount of effort because all the effort is coming from the algae itself. Yeah, like it will make, it'll snowball, it'll make a real difference in the world if a whole bunch of people jump on, on this. So if you apply this to just the brewing industry throughout the world, it would make a difference. And if you apply it to a whole bunch of other things, which, you know, is the unknown with algae is limitless opportunities that, you know, it could really go a long way to helping the world get back on track in terms of what's going on. But, yeah, interest wise, we've had like international interests from breweries, from bakers, from anything you can think of in terms of harnessing raw materials and doing something with it. So there has been a lot of interest. And ideally, we want to just be able to, like, make this easier for everyone else so that they can do it and fight the good fight, you know.
Lucy: Yeah, yeah no, you've mentioned a couple of things. Fighting the good fight, people power, DIY approach. And I think, Emma, that's something you could probably relate to. You're having a bit of a sustainability revolution, particularly in the food industry. So what is Pocket City Farms doing to address the climate impact of growing food and sustainability in that industry as well?
Emma: Uh, so we sort of set out with the focus of urban agriculture because, you know, it's ... Australia is one of the most urbanised countries in the world. Eighty nine percent of us live in cities, and so little of our food is grown in cities. So for every kilo of food that we consume, it produces half a kilo of CO2. And that is predominantly just from transportation. So in that simple sense, we are seeking to produce food close to where we live to minimise transport. But the other role urban agriculture plays is, you know, green space in our cities plays a massive role in cleaning our air in our cities, in introducing biodiversity into our cities. And in the case of green roofs, when you start looking at putting farms and things on green roofs, it captures stormwater that would then run off into our oceans. So aside from that, a big part of what we wanted to do was provide education. So, we have with this farm and we will always, with future farms, make sure that they are completely accessible to the community. It's really important to us that they are used as tools for building community and for providing education. So we do a lot of school programs there. We do a lot of community workshops, and we do a really solid volunteer program where people come through and learn how to farm basically and learn where their food comes from. We've had quite a few of those volunteers go away and become farmers themselves, which has been quite important in, in our minds, given that the average age of our farmer is 60 years old.
Lucy: And when did you become interested in this? Was there a moment for you where something ticked in you when I've got to do something about sustainability and food?
Emma: I don't know. I can't really recall a moment. To me, it's just. I've always been a very practical person and, acting for climate change is just common sense. It's like if you see something that all of our scientists are saying is real, it's not debatable anymore. How do you turn around and then work in an industry that doesn't work to mitigate that?
Lucy: And how has- you've mentioned a couple of ways, of course, but how has the community gotten involved and responded to your work? Positively, do you find?
Emma: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. We've found a really positive response to what we're doing. And a lot of people have found it to be just an extra third place that they use in their cities. So it's a place where they can go and find like-minded people. And we've had quite a few people even form their own connections, you know, and then they've gone away and done different projects that are perhaps related. But we've found it to be a really positive response. We sell our vegies really well every week. We've had a really great response to that.
Lucy: Yeah, fantastic. And do you find when you do these school programs, what is the reaction from young people and what are some of the key questions you get from young people about what you do?
Emma: I mean, the biggest one for a lot of kids is just coming on the farm and tasting something that comes straight off a vine and they're like, oh, that's actually really sweet and delicious. I didn't think I liked peas or ... And just the fascination for people to see, even adults, you walk past an adult that's standing and looking at the farm and they say, "well, I didn't even realise that that's how that grew". Or "I've been watching that in the ground for two months and it's still growing, and then I only want to pay four bucks for it". So, it's just creating a place of connection for people. Suddenly people realise what goes into it, I guess.
Lucy: I think, Mark, that's something that you could probably relate too as well in the fashion industry. We do know that that is one of the largest contributors to carbon emissions. And you see some of those stats and it's quite incredible. So could you break down for us, how exactly does fashion contribute to climate change?
Mark: Well, it's actually quite remarkable. If you think about fashion, the clothing that we wear to keep us warm and looking sexy, it contributes to about 10 percent of global carbon emissions. So that's actually more than the aviation and shipping industry combined. Just for this, and especially in the last 20 years with fast fashion coming about where they're bringing in new clothing into a store every week. It's absolutely remarkable how this has such a big impact on the planet.
Lucy: Yeah, and I guess same question to you, was there a moment where you kind of clocked that you wanted to do something about sustainability or something you recognised in your industry that made you go, "nuh, I've got to do something".
Mark: Well about 10 years ago, we did this thing called 'Estethica', which was, it was a sustainable fashion week at Fashion Week. So it was a really big deal. We used organic fabrics and we tried to minimise our waste. And then I was always kind of like the nerdy fashion designer. So I kept on asking these questions like, OK, so we've used less waste and less pesticide, but we're using all this water and you're producing all this land mass and where's this going and how do we recycle this? And I decided I'm actually going to have to solve these problems. Like, I should be making pretty clothing for like rich people who want to spend seven hundred pounds on a skirt. But I went off and I'm like, I'm going to need to do a PhD. I'm going to need to find some scientists. I'm going to need to find some answers. And I've devoted the last sort of 11 years to track down these answers.
Lucy: Wow. And algae is something that you've incorporated into your practice as well. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Mark: Well, algae, as Peter mentioned, algae just has all the things that we need. So it's got carbohydrates, it's got protein. So proteins are like wool. It has things like cellulose, which is cotton. So we have all the components and they're all being grown in this really primitive form. So they come out really easily. We just grow the bit that we need. So we have all the components. Why do we need to have a farm that grows on arable land? To grow a T-shirt requires, I think it's 2700 litres of water and takes 100 days to grow. Some of these algae are doubling in biomass every 24 hours. And we could grow them in the sea. We can grow them in old ponds. We can grow them on the tops of roofs. So why not rebuild the entire system from scratch?
Lucy: Do you think people are willing to pay a premium for climate conscious fashion?
Mark: I think the younger generation definitely has an appetite for this and it's almost a mark of prestige. The newer generations, they really see what's going on and if they can feel that they can contribute, because there's a sense that we're powerless. And I think people actually do want to make a difference. And if they can with their hip pocket, they will be willing to do that, at least some of the younger generations, at least I've seen this. We can't create the technology fast enough. And there's this unbelievable demand. So we're moving as quickly as we can.
Lucy: Yeah. Emma, what do you think about that? Do you think people are willing to pay that money for climate consciousness?
Emma: Yeah, I would say fairly similar. Like it's a younger generation that are happy to, to pay the bit extra for something that they know is local and that is organic. And it's people who are, who are already educated on it. So, I think that's where education really comes into is helping people understand why this is worth more. And, and not to say that our veggies are worth more. Sometimes we sell them for less than Coles do, and people just don't realise. And they look at the price and think, "well, it's organic, so it must be so much more expensive". But yeah, there's definitely a market there. And I think it's, it comes from those that are educated around why they should be supporting industries like that.
Lucy: Yeah. And what are some other myths, do you think you are also trying to bust through sustainability and food? What's one thing that you would want people to know? Maybe if they do think that organic food is always going to be more expensive.
Emma: That's a good question. I think. Yeah, it's definitely around, it's around the cost of food. Like it does, it does cost more to produce food that, that doesn't have an effect on the environment. And, you know, and a synthetic fertiliser is cheap, whereas the time taken to rotate your crops and grow green manures to actively fertilise your soils in a natural way takes a lot more time and a lot more people power. So I think busting that myth of, you know, farming being very industrialised is, is an important one.
Lucy: Definitely. And Jesse and Emma, I guess both of your industries and we've seen even from our tour at the back that you are finding pretty innovative ways to, I guess, get rid of waste, really. Could you tell us a bit more about that, I guess, within the work that you both do?
Jesse: Yeah, we have a number of things that we do that enhance sustainability and, you know, we try and just not necessarily dispose, but get rid of waste products that ... in a better fashion than a lot of breweries would. But probably off the top of my head, we have, this entire roof above us is actually covered in solar panels. And that really gives us a lot of our power. On a sunny day we can actually get about 40 per cent of our energy use from that. So obviously, solar is completely, you know, it's a never ending source of energy. Our spent grain, so once we've milked all the extract and nutrients and things out of, out of our grain that we've milled, that then is one of our waste products. It has basically nothing left. It's like a tasteless sort of bran cereal, but it's very good for cattle. So what we do, and all sort of livestock, and even just as a fertiliser and things like that. But what we do is we give that away for free to a farmer out in Oberon and he feeds it to his cattle. And what it does for us is that, if he didn't take it away every week, we would actually not be able to brew anymore because we would run out of room because we're creating about five and a half tons of this a week. And so he sort of scratches our back in that way. And we scratch his back in the way that we're giving him free animal feed. And he's, he's often said things to me, like if it wasn't for- he actually takes that off a couple of breweries around here, but, um, you know, during the drought last year, a lot of his- he said that he would have lost a lot of his herd because of, if it wasn't for this free feed that we were able to give him. So that's a really good way to get to, to put that back into the circular nature of what Pete was talking about. And then what else? We put in actually a hot water reclamation system last year, which didn't cost much in terms of capital outlay versus what it saved us. It was actually a really basic thing. It's just a couple of pipes from a couple of different vessels. But what, what it ended up doing was saving us over a million and a half litres of water a year of hot water. So there's, that's like a triple edged saving there. It's obviously volume of water. It's the heat that we've made and put into that water. They're not going to waste. And also, it's less of our trade waste, so less of our effluent going out into the system. So that, stuff like that. The best thing about my job is working with my team who all sort of fall in this same attitude of sustainability and innovating and hearing people come up to me and say, oh, why don't we do this? And it might save this. Like there was even an idea today about a cleaning practice that we're doing that we're going to try tomorrow that will then save a bunch of chemicals and water as well. So it's, that's probably the best part of it is that, you know, we've got a team of really like-minded people across all departments of this company and everyone really wants to contribute to that. And that's a really cool thing to be a part of.
Lucy: Absolutely. Emma, what about you? How do you find that you're being innovative with waste at Pocket City Farms and what you're trying to implement?
Emma: So for us, I mean, there's you know, we're always needing compost. We're always needing inputs into our farm. We operate on really sandy soil. We're on an old bowling club. So the soil is sand. It was made to free drain and everything we add to it free drains. All of our nutrients go straight through. So producing compost is really important for us. And so we work to produce around 20 cubic metres every few weeks on site. So we have 20 cubic metres of space where we use all of the waste, all the veggie waste that comes off the farms, or the plant waste when we're pulling crops out. We have in the past, you know, used spent grain from Young Henrys, we take in spent coffee grounds, from time to time even sort of pine chips from natural timber companies in the city and often have arborists come through and drop off all of their mulch. So we're working to sort of make a resource of anything in the city that is going to waste and, and putting that back onto our farm. And something I've just been looking at as part of this discussion is the algae. For us, you know, with that sandy soil, we have a real issue with keeping our nitrogen levels up. And because of its past use, we have really high phosphorus levels. But all that phosphorus that plants need is really locked up. It's not available. And algae has this amazing property of adding huge amounts of nitrogen to the soil while also making that phosphorus bioavailable to the plants.
Lucy: And when did you discover that potential for algae in your business?
Emma: Just this week.
Lucy: Just this week?!
Emma: Just in my research for this discussion.
Lucy: Ah, fantastic!
Emma: Yeah.
Lucy: I love that. Well, look, I actually like what you've both mentioned about waste there and using that, because I think in the fashion industry in particular, that's a huge one. So, Mark, how do you approach waste in fashion and, and what have you and your peers been trying to do?
Mark: Well, I've looked at waste in fashion. I've been looking at it for a really long time. So what I did was zero waste was, we tried to basically at the pattern cutting process. So when we make a garment, you actually throw about 15 percent of the garment, even if you've optimised the fit of all the bits and pieces in on a computer, just because the way clothing is made. So we start redesigning clothing with a different mindset. So everything fits together like a jigsaw. So that was like a great starting place. But as we grew up and we learned more about how this works on the large scale, we had to address, OK, what's going to happen afterwards and where's everything coming from. And I'm not sure if you know, with the Deep Green Biotech Hub, we have a whole bunch of, we have chemists. And we have a whole bunch of people and they're like the 'rock stars' of chemistry. So in terms of getting to algae, there's a whole bunch of other technologies that get built in the background. There's all sorts of interesting industry collaborations, and sometimes it's all the stuff that goes in the background that will make a better result. So it's the things, the things we discover on the way. So how to process waste afterwards, how to make algae fibres. There's all these really big technical issues that we can solve.
Lucy: And how do you think industries like fashion, like science, can work together, I guess, to tackle big issues like climate change? That's a huge question, I know, but, you know, I wonder that. But also, when you were thinking about starting this, did you have people look at you like you had two heads because you're wanting to amalgamate these two industries?
Mark: I was, I was saying like everything that we do is terrible. And everyone's like, OK, we agree, but what are you going to do about it? And I was like, we're going to build everything from scratch. And people were like, how are you going to do that? I'm like, I'll find some scientists. And I found with, with all the wastage and things like that, it's one of these things where you have to, you start with a blank sheet of paper and you build up. And I kind of feel that if you look at all these giant tech companies around the world, they're, they're burning through billions of dollars in research and development. Fast fashion companies are making people some of the wealthiest people on the planet. Where's their research? Shouldn't they be like Apple? Should they be running like pioneering algae technology and showing off how good their environmental credentials are? And this is this missing component. They have to be more like tech companies and bring their latest and, you know, one up each other. And I think this is how we can get fashion companies actually taking a lead instead of being these villains. There could be heroes in the space instead of villains. And I think that's where we start.
Lucy: Yeah, definitely. It's interesting hearing from all three of you in your respective industries. But Peter, I want to put it to you. How... Do you think businesses have a responsibility to address climate change, as someone who is working and that is in the industry, who is part of Deep Green Biotech Hub, looking at the work you do and the result it has, do you think there is a responsibility for businesses to be having these discussions?
Peter: I think there's, there's definitely interest in addressing these problems. The problem is we've got to make sure that it's an economically viable solution to them. So the first part of working with the business is to understand the touch points, work out what things are their ... do they need for their clients, for their products to, to actually differentiate themselves? Then you've got to work out whether or not our product can actually fit into their production systems. So once you got past those two, I think there's this, I don't want to say that there's industry has an expectation, but I suppose the approach I take is industry is the best way for us to address climate change, because if there is a market pull and we, the society, want a product that is going to be carbon neutral, carbon negative, then industry is going to make that product for us. And so we don't have to wait for politicians to put a carbon tax. We don't have to wait for politicians to get policy through to allow us to move forward with carbon mitigation. If the public wants products that are going to be carbon negative, industry will make them. And that's, that's I suppose our challenge, is to be able to get the technology to the right industry partners, to make the right products so that then society fixes climate change. And we don't have to wait for the politicians. We can do it ourselves. And I think that's the really exciting thing with working with industry. As soon as industry gets it that they can, there's a profit in it. They can see that they can do the right thing. As soon as we have a carbon tax, every product that we make is going to be orders of magnitude cheaper. So I think there's very, very easy sells to work with the industry. You just got to find the right ones. And brewing was an easy one. Fashion is an easy one. Urban horticulture is an easy one. You know, cement manufacturing, plastics. You know, food, alternate protein. You know, these are easy things that people want and society can make a difference straight off.
Lucy: Absolutely. And I feel like you've touched on this a little bit. But what are your motivations in choosing to incorporate sustainability, innovation in your business models, if you can call it that, or at least within your faculties?
Peter: What we want is, we want to actually turn the question, our institute, the climate, so C3, the Climate Change Cluster, we are based on both adaptation and mitigation. Adaptation is telling society how climate change is damaging the planet. We've been doing that for 40 years and we know exactly what's happening. Mitigation is the hard part, and giving society solutions is something that's really, really exciting. And I think that's what's driving me to evolve the Institute to a point where we are able to offer these solutions. And I think that's what 2020 and 2021 for, for us at UTS. We're going to be driving this new vision of climate solutions. So it's to give society practical, tangible ways to fix the planet.
Lucy: Hmm. Practicality is a good one for all of you. I think so. I guess. Same question. What were your motivations, Mark? And wanting to incorporate sustainable practices, innovation? And how do you think it's best to communicate that within the fashion industry?
Mark: I think fashion is something that everyone can relate to because we all wear it. But it's more than just what we wear. It's almost like our culture. It absorbs all the where we live and everything we believe in. And I think it's almost like a canvas where everyone can express themselves. So if we build a sustainable system, it solves a lot of problems. Fashion has this thing about branding and brand is basically you create this hype of something that has no intrinsic value. But I always thought about, what if we could build something that has intrinsic value and then whatever you did would be good. So there's no need for the hype. So we can just go with it.
Lucy: Yeah. And I guess to each of you, obviously, you are doing quite innovative work in your fields. How do you think your business is creating ripples in your field?
Emma: For us, I think we've yes, we started with the aim of urban agriculture in 2011. We knocked on so many buildings and so many doors trying to find a space in the city that we could grow food on and were met with so many confused faces and hard no’s and the turnaround now in the interest in urban agriculture has just been huge. So we, we have a developer knocking on our door every week now, asking can we set up a farm in their development? And so we've recently started consulting to try and take that on. But for us, that has just been such a significant change. And I mean, you know, it took us three years to find a space and then it took us another three years to work with council for them to figure out, OK, so we're going to try and put a farm here. How do we, what kind of rules do we need? How do we make that work? And everything now is just really starting to fast track. And I think that that is really exciting to see.
Lucy: Jesse?
Jesse: Yeah, I mean, for Young Henrys, I think if you look at the craft brewing scene in Australia and specifically Sydney, we've been the first to sort of do a lot of these things and make, make these efforts to become more sustainable. And that you can see that in, you know, in our customer base, like people that are Young Henrys drinkers are very loyal and that they're very outspokenly, you know, I can't walk down... I live around the corner and I can't walk around here without seeing like some sort of Young Henrys merch every day. Like, it's like a, it's a real like a strong brand. And people really not only are drawn to us from, for our beer or for our marketing or for whatever, they're drawn to us for our ethos on what we're doing. So I think for us, it's been really cool to be like, kind of a little bit of a trailblazer in that, in that regard and that people have really jumped on board with that.
Lucy: Yeah. A question for each of you. Based on what Emma said, when you are met with adversity, when you are met with, you know, time restraints, with push back, with no, with, you know, "you're crazy". What keeps you motivated? What keeps you set on your goal and set to continuing sustainability?
Emma: I'm stubborn. I think for us, we, in our process, we were always just that little bit closer, that it felt like we'd made a little bit too much progress to give up and turn back from trying to do what we doing. And even now, you know, we have managed to set up a farm. It's a quarter of an acre, and we want to get local food into as many communities in our cities as possible. And, you know, every week there's a little taste of, OK, how might we be able to do that? So you kind of just keep going because the opportunities start to slowly present themselves and that is the end goal. And, you know, if you're getting there a little bit every week, then you just keep going.
Lucy: Jesse, what keeps you motivated?
Jesse: Definitely my team. The brew crew, we're really tight knit and a really close family. Brewing can be a pretty unsanctimonious job at times. It's dirty. It's hot. All of that kind of, like uncomfortableness. And, you know, we've really got to be there for one another to keep each other going and put a smile on each other's faces. And also to be able to walk into where we're sitting right now, especially like on a Friday afternoon and see a swathe of people enjoying our labours and you know, congregating and having a good time and that, that really, if I'm having a bad day or a bad week and I come in here on a Friday, it always cheers me up.
Lucy: Peter?
Peter: I'm a teacher. I'm a teacher, I'm an academic. I want to make sure the next generation have the knowledge to fix the planet. And I've kind of got it mostly, I got a plan in my head and it's a matter of imparting that to the next generation. I love being an academic, so that's what gets me out of bed.
Lucy: And Mark?
Mark: I think that sustainability kind of brings out my inner teenager. So the more no’s, the more I rage against it. And I kind of feel that when you're going down that path, there's no like, I don't see any other option. And it's also the most cutting edge thing you could do with fashion, because fashion has always used the latest materials, the latest ideas and we're breaking these boundaries. There's nothing more exciting.
Lucy: We're going to get to some audience questions now, these are being submitted in real time via the comments section below. So I feel like we've touched on this already a little bit Emma, but Stacey in Melbourne wants to know, could you see the potential for algae in an urban farm and how financially viable would it be?
Emma: In terms of growing algae, I'm assuming she means? I would probably have to pass that over to Peter because I, I do not know a thing about growing algae.
Lucy: Just threw you under the bus there. Sorry.
Peter: Good segue. Yes, we can. Absolutely. Urban, urban agriculture to produce, we can have high intensity production of vegetables. But you also can grow the algae on its waste and you can actually then feed the algae back, as Emma said, to give nutrients. So yeah, whether or not it's cost effective, I'm not sure, but absolutely. Urban agriculture and algae nutrients go hand in hand. Easy.
Lucy: I guess on that note, someone else asking, how can I do this at home? Can I turn my pond into a bioreactor, start my own urban farm, change what I wear? I guess if anyone wants to take the floor with this one, all bases have been covered.
Mark: I think recently there is competition called the Bio Design Challenge that's held in New York. And the runner up, actually, she was locked down in COVID and she actually grew algae in her home pond and made a face mask.
Lucy: Really?
Mark: Yeah, so ingenuity during COVID. Just start by growing some algae and take with it!
Emma: So you can grow it potentially in your own pond situation?
Mark: Yeah, she just scraped that with that pool cleaner and then she sort of felt it I think, made a couple of layers, combined it with a couple of things. Yeah, you can watch it online. She does some tests where she tests how resilient it is. So anywhere is a starting point, really.
Lucy: This question from Rachel in Newy asking, how did Young Henrys first hear about algae and what was the light bulb moment that lead to this project?
Jesse: Well, as I mentioned before, this has sort of been in the works for a little while. I'm not sure if it was exactly a light bulb moment, but I think it was sort of that shared passion and keenness to make a difference and use something to our advantage and that will help the planet. I think that really was probably the time that it happened.
Lucy: When considering the algae used for this process, was it a matter of selection, breeding or modification? What were the selection criteria of the organism? Jacob, wanting to know that one?
Mark: Good question. So far it's, it's just been going through our collection so you can go to a pond, scoop the water up, and there'll be hundreds and hundreds of different species in there. We've got to work out which ones do the best. And so we've got a situation here where we've got lots and lots of CO2. So not all algae grow really, really well in CO2, in high levels of CO2. So we had to find the right strains. So we've done no modification. It's just an alga that grows well in high CO2.
Lucy: Yeah, this is a pretty big question. How much algae would we need to offset all breweries' emissions? Is this just the beginning?
Mark: I don't have the answer off the top of my head, but what the problem is, is the density. So this, this algae that we got here isn't dense enough. We've got to get it really, really dark and dense. So that absorbs all the CO2. So we'll get to a point where it's the light. We can't get enough light into the algae to absorb all the CO2. So we're thinking about solutions. And yeah, there is ways that we can get, instead of just having massive great volumes of water with lots of algae, we can concentrate the light. We can, we've got concentrated CO2 here. So there is ways that we can get closer. But as Jesse just said, this is a start.
Lucy: Yeah, this might have been touched on in the tour, but how is the CO2 fed into the algae tanks? How big would the algae tanks need to be to soak up 100 percent of the CO2 from one Young Henrys batch?
Jesse: That's a great question. So the way that we do it is that, we use our own sort of soft hoses that we use for all sorts of transfers of product between tanks and vessels and all that. We pipe that into a little compressor that UTS were kind enough to build for us, which then fills a balloon. Um, it's very pretty. It's a very nice colour scheme, this balloon. And then once that balloon has inflated enough, it actually sets off, um, sorry, it's not a not a compressor at the start. That's just the natural pressure from the fermentation. So if you have ever been to a brewery before and you see like a bucket on a tank that's fermenting, you'll notice it's bubbling quite vigorously. That's all natural CO2 expulsion from yeast metabolising sugar inside the tank. So that natural pressure fills up the balloon, the balloon sets off that alarm that engages a compressor which sucks that CO2 out of the balloon into another holding tank. And then that holding tank doses the two bioreactors at a set percentage, which we can manipulate. So it's pretty round about ... Sorry what was the second half a question here?
Lucy: How big would the algae tanks need to be to soak up a hundred percent of the CO2 from one Young Henrys batch?
Jesse: So that's really quite complicated because the CO2 production in beer is really dependent on what beer you're making and the yeast that you're producing. So the strength of the wort, so the sugar content, the gravity, the density of the wort, basically will give you the potential of how much CO2 will be expelled during fermentation. So most studies will tell you that it's about 4.4 kilograms per hundred hectolitre of what we refer to in gravity terms of 1046 specific gravity or that's about thirteen or twelve Plato. So that's two different measurements. Obviously all those things add to that. But what we're doing with our fermenters in terms of putting into the bioreactor, I haven't actually run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that all the CO2 that we could produce from most of our batches could quite easily be absorbed by one of the bioreactors. As I know, Leon, who's on the triple C thing, said that one of those bioreactors is worth one hectare of Australian rainforest in terms of its CO2 absorption from the atmosphere so.
Lucy: Wow. And Sean asking, could you theoretically turn the algae back into alcohol if it is converting CO2 and light into sugar, ie. a biofuel or even a base spirit?
Jesse: Pete would probably know more, but yeah, you probably need another algae to then ferment that algae.
Mark: So in principle, yes. So you can make biofuels out of the algae. So it's all about the sugars and the oils that are in the algae. So, yes, you could make a fuel. Yes, you could. You're not going to get a lot of, well you could make ethanol out of, out of algae and that's what they put into biofuels in the US. So, yeah, both, both ways you could make alcohols. Yep.
Lucy: So what have been some of the challenges for the brewing team in using this process, Jacob asking that one?
Jesse: Well, Jacob, as I said, this has been quite an evolution, like a drawn out chain of, of this progressing through its life cycle. And I remember being in a couple of meetings and listening to everyone sit around and talk. And I was sort of the only member of the, the group of people that would be responsible for doing most of this work. So I was sort of sitting there being like, oh, hang on, it's all well and good to talk about this, but I'm the one that's going to go and have to tell everyone to do this and do that. But honestly, you know, that was more from a protective part of me about my team and not trying to increase their workload and my own. But to be honest, it's actually been really easy and it doesn't require that much time. And as I've alluded to a couple of times in this, like the thing that's really doing the work here is, is in that jar. And same for brewing. The thing that's really doing the work is not me, it's the yeast in the tank that's sort of where the magic happens. So, yeah, honestly, it's actually not that big a deal in terms of facilitating what's happening here.
Peter: But I think what happened is, is Young Henrys and UTS spent a lot of time talking and working out where the middle ground was. And so, as scientists, we didn't go into the fine weeds and explain every little detail, but we actually tried to understand what the brewing process was, how we could fit our technology into theirs. And so, for working with the industry, scientists and engineers have to really be comfortable to learn a new vernacular, talk to the guys and not assume that brewers are going to get algal culture. But we've got to translate and find common language. And I think, you know, that's what we did up in the boardroom a lot of times.
Jesse: And, and also even when the UTS guys have come in to install the things because they're the real the load bearers in terms of installing and setting up these things, the bioreactors, that's always been a fantastic thing, because if there's ever been any issues, sort of me or my team will have logged what's going on. Oh there's a leak in this airline, whatever, anything small like that, we'll then tell the guys and they'll help rectify it. And saying that, sometimes they'll have questions for us about, oh is this working or is this working? And we'll give them feedback. So it is definitely a real good back and forth to make, make it happen. But as I said before, it's not been this huge workload thing that it sounded like at the start. It's actually been really elegant and good.
Lucy: I'm wary of time, but I guess I want to put this question to each of you. So what would the greenest futures of your industries look like? What is the ultimate scenario? So, Mark, we'll start with you.
Mark: I think the ultimate scenario is, it's not just the technology that we've developed just for the algae. It's basically all the technology that goes around it. So you can imagine soon that the base material that we'll be using for all of these things is just algae. And we're talking about replacing bioplastic. We're replacing cotton, protein that could be wool. So algae replacing the source of everything and then also building up those technologies to figure out how to recycle them, the facilities to develop all these things. This is all the chemistry that's going on in the background. And we're sort of developing it. And it's not the most glamorous stuff, but it's going on. And it's super important that we can take the wastage and have a way that we can reclaim it and then reconstitute something of high quality. And that's actually where a lot of the value that we generate is, because if you can take old things and make them into new things and increase the quality, that's commerce, you know.
Lucy: Mm hmm. Peter?
Peter: I'm going to go not for a single industry, but what I'm going to say is what we need to see happen is a green revolution. So we've got COVID on at the moment and we need to come out of COVID. And we've got a fantastic opportunity for society, industry to transition and pivot to a sustainable future. And now's the time for us to be doing it. So within the next six months to a year, as once we have a vaccine and life returns to normal, the worst thing that we could do is return to the old unsustainable ways. And we've got the technology now. So let's transition. Let's have a green revolution.
Lucy: Mmm. Jesse?
Jesse: I'm going to, I'm going to echo exactly what Peter said. Like, I think this doesn't come down to industry, you know, by industry. I think it's a shift in everyone's understanding of that we live on this planet and we've only got one planet to live on. And, you know, we can't, we couldn't do any of this if we couldn't, if this was uninhabitable. So we need to contribute towards, um, fixing that and being able to live more sustainably.
Lucy: Yeah, Emma?
Emma: I echo those sentiments exactly. I hope that everyone that's learnt to grow a vegetable garden during COVID continues to do so. But I would say in urban agriculture, Utopia looks like every new development having, you know, green roofs that are growing food. If they don't, they need to have solar panels. And we need our governments to get these policies in place. Our local governments. That every unused space is growing food. And that can be any scale from community gardens, to larger scale urban agriculture projects. We should be growing using these spaces as much as we can to grow vegetables and then using our peri-urban and our outskirt areas to grow our fruits and our grains and things like that.
Lucy: Yeah. Question for Peter, oddly specific from Benjamin. How does Peter feel about Guy Sebastian spraying all that algae all over the ground? Careful.
Peter: I must admit, I did see it and I thought, wow, that's an awful lot of algae that's being wasted. So I'm sure it was for a good cause and it was for a good, uh, video clip. But yeah, there's a lot of algae wasted!
Lucy: And I guess we've touched on three different industries in three different sectors that you are doing sustainability and using algae or thinking about using algae. So do you know of any other cool companies or projects that are using algae in a beneficial way around the world? Anyone that you want to shout out or anything that you've read?
Mark: There's a company called AlgiKnit who's doing some really amazing work with seaweed and kelps, and they're really recent company, but they've been coming up with some really amazing things. They've, I think there's always been algae in the space. People have always been interested in using algae. It's just the amounts of algae in fabrics has always been quite small and getting the technology where we can, yeah, start replacing sources of the major components, cellulose or bioplastic with algae. That's when things become really interesting.
Lucy: Urban planning in your particular industry, have you heard of anything cool or anything potentially happening with algae?
Emma: Not too much, but, you know, in speaking to Peter before this and we were talking about, you know, hopefully COVID means that everyone starts working from home instead of travelling into the cities. And if that means swathes of empty office buildings that, you know, you can start urban agriculture of algae and then I'm all for it.
Lucy: Yeah. Jesse, have you heard of any other particular uses?
Jesse: Yes. So, my old man lives down in Tassie. G'day Dad, I think he's watching. And so I go down there quite a lot and, I don't know the names of the companies off the top of my head, but I know that Tasmania has a very specific climate and has a very specific water source from the Southern Ocean. So there's a bunch of algae guys down there trying to sort of harness a lot of what's in the water and turn it into different things. My stepbrother actually is, I think he's wanting to get involved in that. So that's one cool thing I've heard. And it's just literally in the sea.
Lucy: And finally, if there is anyone watching right now or people wanting to get involved in addressing climate change in their particular industry, what's one piece of advice that you would give them or one thing that they can do? I think we'll start with you, Mark.
Mark: I think if you're interested in the sort of design area, I think one of the easiest things that you can start with is basically make friends with a scientist and get them to explain, because, we've talked about this lexicon, this language that we can speak to each other in a really generous way. Get them to explain why you can't do some things, why you can do things, what the problems are and how to address them. Because if you just kind of say, I am one thing and I'm, I'm not a scientist, I'm just this thing, it's not enough. I guess we need to learn how to communicate with scientists. And scientists also need to learn how to communicate with farmers and brewers and fashion designers and designers of any field. So, make buddies with scientists. That's the easiest thing to do.
Peter: Good call, good call. What do I think? I think what we need to start seeing transitioning really quickly is, we need to have algae farmers. Whether they're in the inner city or outside. We need people to start growing the stuff for the markets that are evolving, because there's so many people that want biomass, but there's no farmers around. So we need to get farmers starting really, really quickly. And that's something that I hope to see. If somebody wants to get involved, start thinking about finding out what type of algae can I grow and who wants it, because as the demand for products come, we need to have producers and we don't have producers.
Jesse: I just say get on board, like I said before, we got one place to live and we're in charge of looking after it. And, you know, if you're whatever business here and I'm sure that if you really think hard enough about it, you can come up with an idea of how to contribute to that business being more sustainable.
Emma: I would just add to collaborate to find, you know, there's probably very likely someone else within your industry that's looking at doing the same thing. And if we can work together on, on solving those issues rather than everyone plodding along trying to do it themselves, we're going to get there a lot quicker.
Lucy: Absolutely. It's all about collaborating for climate mitigation, for adaption, which is what we've been discussing. And if someone, we've got a final audience question. If anyone has felt inspired by what you do, how could they potentially get in touch? OK, this is your socials plugging right now. So, Mark, if someone wants to get in touch, re fashion?
Mark: Google me, I guess? I'm on Instagram, Dr. Mark Liu. Otherwise, if they're interested in the really deep sciences, I guess, hit up Peter.
Lucy: Yeah.
Peter: I was going to say the Deep Green Biotech Hub. There's, that, that's the contact place. Talk to us there and we're happy to explore options.
Lucy: Yeah.
Jesse: I would say drink independently owned local beer! But, but really, and, you know, get involved in your community around that brewery. If you're from around here, come on down, come and talk to anyone. There's plenty of interesting people around that are always up for a yarn.
Emma: If you can ask us any questions, just head to our website, get in touch with me on email there, or our Pocket City Farms Instagram.
Lucy: Fantastic. Well, that's just, just about done. We've had some really great discussions here this afternoon. Thank you so much for being involved, Dr Mark Liu. Peter Ralph, Jesse Searls and Emma Bowen. You can check them out online. And thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you so much for your questions as well. You can check out more online. I'm Lucy Smith. You can catch me talking science with Dr. Karl on a Thursday on Triple J. But for now, thank you so much for being a part of Science in Focus. Beer and Algae: Brewing a Better Future. See ya!
20 August 2020
Algae and beer. Sounds like a match made in heaven! Independent brewery Young Henrys were on a mission to tackle their carbon emissions, when they came across the Climate Change Cluster (C3) research institute at the University of Technology Sydney (UTS). Together they have been on a two year journey to help reduce this impact through a world-first solution using algae as a natural and efficient converter of turning carbon dioxide into oxygen.
You will be taken into the heart of the brewery with Oscar McMahon, co-founder and director of Young Henrys and Dr Janice McCaughly, research associate at UTS. You will learn how the fusion of brewing science and climate change innovation led to an Australian-first, and hear how the humble organism – algae – is changing the future of our planet.
The virtual tour will be a springboard into a live interactive panel discussion around the broader world of practical applications of sustainable initiatives for other everyday businesses.
UTS Science in Focus is a free public lecture series showcasing the latest research from prominent UTS scientists and researchers.