Centreing the workplace experiences of Indigenous Australians

Gari Yala 2 (Speak the Truth) provides one of the most comprehensive and current examinations of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander people’s workplace experiences in Australia. 

Six years on from the inaugural 2020 report, more than 1,100 Indigenous employees have again spoken truth about what is happening inside Australian workplaces today. 

Their message is clear: organisations have made some progress, but not enough. 

Racism and lack of cultural safety remain widespread, and without organisations deeply committing to truth-listening and truth-acting, meaningful change will remain out of reach.

This research was again proudly sponsored by the NAB Foundation in 2025

Download our reports and infographics

Explore our research in detail.

 

 

You can also access accessible versions of the reports via the links or the Report Infographic.

Key Findings

This research drew on the insights and experiences of 1,158 Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander workers and compared the experiences shared in 2020 by 1,033 Indigenous workers. 

Just 40% of Indigenous employees reported that their workplaces were culturally safe. 

The persistence of racism

The lack of cultural safety in workplaces is emphasised by the commonality of racism:

Anti-racism action remains significantly low

Most organisations are unprepared to prevent or respond to racism at work. 

  • Nearly two thirds of Indigenous employees (63%) say their workplace provides no antidiscrimination training that addresses racism towards Indigenous peoples.
  • Even more concerning, 69% said their workplace does not have a racism complaint procedure.
  • Not surprisingly, only 38% of Indigenous workers who experienced racism felt they had the support they needed when unfair treatment and/or racial slurs or jokes at work occurred.

These gaps matter. Where organisations had both a racism complaint procedure and compliance training in place, racism was significantly lower – 40% of Indigenous employees in these workplaces experienced racism very often, often, or sometimes, compared to 66% in organisations with neither.

Unpaid, unseen, and unfair: The ‘hidden year’ of unpaid work

A major finding of this report is the quantification of unpaid workplace demands – formerly referred to as the cultural or colonial load. Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander employees are frequently expected to perform additional, uncompensated tasks such as educating colleagues, managing Reconciliation Action Plans (RAPs), and organising cultural events. 

  • Nearly two thirds (64%) of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander employees experience high levels of cultural load arising from this type of unrecognised and unrewarded work.

These demands accumulate significantly over a career.  We estimate that 1 in 2 full‑time Indigenous employees effectively do an extra year of unpaid work over their 50-year career.

Despite this, 75% said that their organisation did not formally recognise or remunerate cultural load (48%) or that they did not know if their organisation did (27%).

Five years on - what’s changed since 2020?

 

Six years on, the picture is mixed.

  • There are small gains. More employees feel safe to share their identity (79% versus 72%), and seven of nine forms of racism have eased slightly (by between 0.4% and 1% per year).
  • But racism remains stubbornly high. One in two (53%) Indigenous employees still experience inappropriate race-based comments and assumptions. Key markers like unfair treatment (38% in both years), high cultural load (63% versus 64%), and antiracism structures (only 21% of workplaces offering both training and a complaint process in both years) show no progress.
  • A century to silence overt racism.
  • At the current rate of change, without further policy or legislative change, we estimate it could take another 118 years[1] for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander workers to never hear racial slurs and jokes at work.

It is clear to us that the path forward does not require new mandates, but rather a reaffirmation of our original 10 Truths for organisational action and a deeper commitment to the practice of truth-telling.

In Gari Yala 2, we call on Australian employers to move beyond ‘marking the days’ and commit to truth-listening and truth-acting.

This means confronting uncomfortable realities, dismantling systems that enable racism, resourcing Indigenous leadership, and building environments where Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander people can thrive without carrying a disproportionate burden.

Want to use our research?

Materials contained in this document are © Copyright of the Jumbunna Institute, 2026. If you wish to use any content contained in this report, please contact the Centre for Indigenous People and Work Director at nareen.young@uts.edu.au to seek consent.

Where you wish to refer to our research, it must be correctly attributed to the Centre for Indigenous People and Work.

Formal attribution is required where references to research material are in a written format.

Citing the Centre for Indigenous People and Work as a source will suffice where the reference is made in a verbal format.

Suggested citation: Centre for Indigenous People & Work (Young, N., Gilbert, J., Evans, O. and O’Leary, J.) Gari Yala 2 (Speak the Truth): Centreing the Work Experiences of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander Australians in 2025-2026, Sydney, CIPW

[1] 118 years estimate was calculated by using two survey observations – 26% of Indigenous workers reporting they never heard racial slurs in 2020, rising to 29% in 2025. We estimated the average improvement at +0.6 percentage points per year. Applying this rate as a linear trend would mean it would take another 118 years (71% divided by 0.6%) to reach 100% of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander workers reporting they never heard racial slurs. This illustrative trajectory: is of only one form of racism (i.e. racial slurs) not of workplace racism generally; is based on only two data points in time as no other chronological data points were available; and assumes uniform change though we’re conscious real world change can be non linear, being policy dependent.

2026 Gari Yala Launch with UTS logo and Speaking truth graphic.

Gari Yala 2.0 Launch Event

Gari Yala 2.0 Launch Event transcript

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On behalf of UTS’ Centre for Indigenous

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People and Work and NAB 
Foundation, thank you for

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coming to the launch of Gari Yala 2- speak

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the truth. I'm Sam Webster, 
Head of First Nation

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Affairs. I'm representing NAB Foundation as a

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proud partner and

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funder of this important 
research. Before we begin

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formal proceedings, I'd like 
to take a moment, um,

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unfortunately, we couldn't have Auntie Glendra to

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give us an acknowledgement of country. So,

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I will. So, I'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal

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peoples of the Eora nation 
for the lands on which

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we're standing today and pay my respects to

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their Elders, past and present. I think

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it's important for an event like this that we

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acknowledge where we're 
standing today. Um, just

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a quick note on housekeeping. We are recording

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this event. So, I'd ask you now to please put

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your phones on silent, so we don't have any

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interruptions throughout the event. You'll also

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see that on your seats, we've provided a program

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um to make sure we use most 
of our time listening

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to the evidence today. We ask that you peruse

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the speaker biographies in that program. So, a

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little later when I invite 
Nareen up to speak, she

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will formally acknowledge 
our guests in the room.

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And I just want to reiterate, it's incredible.

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Like I don't know if you can see from up here,

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but we've got a crowd standing at the back. So

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very incredible to see many 
people rocking up for

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this event. So the first Gari 
Yala report was released

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in 2020. It shifted the national conversation

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by bringing evidence about First Nation people's

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experience at work into the 
open. 5 years on, Gari

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Yala 2 returns to answer a simple but important

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question. Has anything actually changed? Today

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we'll begin by grounding ourselves in the history

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of First Nation peoples and 
work in this country.

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From there, we'll hear about the evolution of

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Gari Yala before the research team comes up and

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presents the findings from the second report

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and we'll finish with a 
panel conversation from

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evidence to action confronting 
racism in Australia,

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which will be followed by 
an audience Q&A. So get

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your questions ready. To help ground us in

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the conversation, I'm very pleased to invite

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Professor Robynne Quiggin, 
UTS Pro Vice Chancellor,

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Indigenous Leadership and Engagement to begin.

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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the welcome

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here. And um I am as um as was just described,

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I'm the Pro Vice Chancellor Indigenous Leadership

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and Engagement here. I'm 
Robynne Quiggin and I'm a

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Wiradjuri person from the far western part

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of the Wiradjuri nation the uh on the Lachlan

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River bordering on Ngiyampaa 
country. So we are from

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the great Wiradjuri nation from that particular

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part of the country and I am uh a grateful

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guest to the Gadigal people 
and acknowledge that

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we are all, except for those of us that might be

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descended from this place, we are all guests on

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this country and I acknowledge their Elders

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and ancestors. And I want to thank Nareen for

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inviting me to to come and say hello and a bit

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of a a bit of a um little bit of a word before

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uh she officially launches this really important

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work and and uh acknowledging that our guests

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our particular guests will be uh acknowledged by

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Nareen later on. So thank 
you. Thank you for that.

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We have a really long history of work in this

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Country, caring for our Country and also for

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working uh working in agricultural, pastoral

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uh industries, manufacturing, all kinds of

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industries over the years teaching nursing and

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now often uh entrepreneurs, business owners,

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soul traders, managers of corporations. We are

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really have really come 
enormous leaps and bounds.

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as workers in this country and having

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our work recognised. When I first started here,

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Michael McDaniel, my predecessor, said to me,

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"What's your legacy?" And I remember thinking,

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"that's a strange question." And it's not

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because we're big noting narcissists. It's

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because we are people who are grounded in

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intergenerational transfer of knowledge,

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of Country, of who we are. And what he was saying

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to me was not what's the big thing you're going

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to be remembered for? What's going to have your

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name on a plaque about it? 
He was saying, “what is

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your contribution to the 
intergenerational work in

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this University as people 
who are true to who we

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Are”. We are intergenerational transferers of

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our knowledge, our place, our care, our ways

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of being and knowing. We are intergenerational

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transferers of knowledge and of the equity you

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could describe and now in 
our country and our ways

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of not knowing and being. 
The ability to do this

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in a safe and respectful workplace and to achieve

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the benefits of a salary 
for that are sadly recent

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history for us in many ways. The ability

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to even think about what might be a legacy in

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A state a you know a public institution like

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this is also really relatively new and it's on

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the back of enormous work by our people and of

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allies. One of the stories 
of change that I'm most

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familiar with in relation to that is the story of

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forced and unpaid work 
linked in many ways to the

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forced removal of our children over generations

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of hundreds of you know 
over a hundred years but

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in relation to that and also separate to that the

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forced labour, forced unpaid 
labour, and it's happened

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around the country and it happened particularly

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in this State and I was privileged for a period

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of time back in the 2010s to serve on

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the Aboriginal Trust Fund Repayment Scheme

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Panel. Years of work by the Aboriginal Legal

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Service and the New South Wales Legal Service

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and advocates resulted finally in the New South

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Wales Government apologising 
and recognising that

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it had held in trust the lousy little sixpence 
uh that our people were paid uh for

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forced labour and in often atrocious, abusive

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circumstances. And that was that was you

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know a change that was fought for over

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years and the monies were repaid indexed

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with a a measure of compensation for the

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injury but I will never forget sitting on those

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um panels reviewing those documents with people

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saying we have 10 children we're living on the

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riverbank where is our money and they would go to

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the office in New South 
Wales and the office would

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say no. no. We're getting 
married we want to have a

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have wedding. No. So that 
being forced out of the

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economy in that way repeatedly even when we tried

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to work with the system and 
go in and say give us

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the money, give us my money. No. Being forced

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out of our economy by holding salaries for

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you know I don't know how many years you know

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at least 10 or 50 between 10 and 50 years over

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over that time or more probably. Indexation was a

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small piece. It was related 
to tax concessions and

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and you know the most strategic way to do

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it at the time. But a very small piece which is

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which has remained ongoing in New South Wales. A

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very small piece of the some of the restoration

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work to allow people to come back and have that

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work recognised. It's about the money, but it's

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also about the pride. We don't come to work, you

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know, we all complain, I 
got to go to work, it's

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Monday, I got to go to work, whatever. We don't

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come to we come to work for the money for sure,

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but we come to work for the pride in what we do.

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So that denial of that 
recognition and that pride

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and the being able to be recognised for the

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achievement and the 
contribution to the country,

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to the community is a really serious injury that

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um was a it was a great 
great to be part of some

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healing of that, but remains a really important

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piece. And that piece around pride and um and

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having control and being part of the economy

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is really critical to self-determination. If

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you switch off the money and you switch off that

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kind of being able to be proud of what we do,

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that's a really serious injury. So to be able to

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be now in many ways back 
in this economy, back in

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these systems, making change in institutions like

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this one in collaboration with the the broader

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University, the Business School and of course

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Jumbunna is a really important piece around us

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being self-determining and uh and I think I want

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to just really recognise the work of Jumbunna

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research uh and the legacy of people like Uncle

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Bob Morgan, Uncle Ken Canning, Lindy Moffett,

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Michelle Avery, Sheree Oliver, all the people who

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like Bindy, who's here today 
get the work done and

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the leaders people like of 
course Larissa Behrendt

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um today Lindon Coombes my predecessor, Michael

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McDaniel I'm sure people who I've forgotten but

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the great work that people have done to really

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ensure that Jumbunna is self-determining and to

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drive that through this institution and I will

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say as the you know a member of the University's

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leadership team and in this in this role that

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I have The University values it first people's

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self-determination not for 
equity not for parity

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not because of deficit discourse but because the

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University in its leadership and I really feel

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like I can hand on heart say that from sitting in

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the rooms with our Vice 
Chancellor um and I will

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you know acknowledge although Nareen will do that

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later our recently appointed 
Chancellor there is

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a recognition that acknowledging and giving voice

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to self-determination contributes to the public

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good it contributes to the core value and the

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purpose of Universities. It teaches people how

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to be different. It contributes massively to the

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way the university operates. And I'll just say

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um briefly that uh one of the other things we

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do here is run an Indigenous graduate attribute

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in our teaching and learning programs really

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um beautifully done. Sector leading so that

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every graduate leaves here with um some knowledge

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discipline-specific and based in the

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profession that they're training in about how

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to work with and for Indigenous people in the

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country. So the University is deeply committed

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to making change across in its bones. I think

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I can safely say that will never be perfect. But

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I will say there is a deep 
commitment to that and

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again it's not for parity equity although we you

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know pay attention to those 
things. It's not just

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about the numbers. It's about knowing that that

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changes the place. It changes here. It changes

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out there and it changes beyond there. It changes

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things in our communities and it changes things

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out in the nation and largely because also

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the of the evidence base 
that is Gari Yala that is

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Jumbunna research and the I'll just you know

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give you a few examples of the great um work

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that Jumbunna research uh has been doing and this

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project comes out of there 
in collaboration with

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the Business School and 
the broader university. In

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the last two years, Jumbunna staff have led the

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first Aboriginal and Islander 
led independent review

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of the Closing the Gap 
agreement. They've helped

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shape New South Wales path to treaty by advising

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how a treaty process could work

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uh in New South Wales bringing in lessons from

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um other states document 
and Lindon would be here

0:12:04.320,0:12:06.880
with us today from Jumbunna in New in Newcastle

0:12:06.880,0:12:09.520
with the with the Treaty 
Commissioners documented

0:12:09.520,0:12:12.160
Victoria's treaty journey to inform best practice

0:12:12.160,0:12:14.240
that can strengthen the Victorian process and

0:12:14.240,0:12:17.440
inspire national conversations, continued to roll

0:12:17.440,0:12:20.640
it roll out the Call It 
Out First Nations racism

0:12:20.640,0:12:23.600
register the Indigenous-controlled uh record

0:12:23.600,0:12:27.040
of all forms of um 
discrimination experienced by

0:12:27.040,0:12:30.400
First Nations peoples and helped map anti-racism

0:12:30.400,0:12:32.320
policies and programs as 
part of the development

0:12:32.320,0:12:35.360
of a model for the Australian Human Rights

0:12:35.360,0:12:38.160
Commission's National Anti-Racism Framework

0:12:38.160,0:12:40.080
and we acknowledge having the com we're very

0:12:40.080,0:12:42.560
lucky to have the Commissioner here with us

0:12:42.560,0:12:46.080
today. Six years on the national conversation has

0:12:46.080,0:12:49.040
largely been led uh by 
non-Indigenous people and

0:12:49.040,0:12:51.280
it's a great joy to be able to welcome Nareen

0:12:51.280,0:12:55.280
to the stage to speak about this Indigenous-led

0:12:55.280,0:12:58.400
project together with partners and thank you

0:12:58.400,0:13:12.560
for Nareen for being able to 
speak about this today.

0:13:12.560,0:13:18.000
As you can I'm not at my best today, but counting

0:13:18.000,0:13:24.000
down the days til I get a new joint in my hip.

0:13:24.000,0:13:30.160
Wow. Um, you look amazing. 
Um, Aunty Glendra couldn't

0:13:30.160,0:13:34.560
be here. Um, I don't know 
how well any of you

0:13:34.560,0:13:39.120
know Aunty Glendra, but 
she imbues this place with

0:13:39.120,0:13:43.040
her blackness of generosity and she couldn't

0:13:43.040,0:13:46.080
be here today. So, I'm going to acknowledge um

0:13:46.080,0:13:48.880
that were on the land of what some people call

0:13:48.880,0:13:54.080
Gadigal. Um other people like me from um groups,

0:13:54.080,0:13:57.840
descendants of groups in 
the inner city um have a

0:13:57.840,0:14:00.080
different view about the ownership, but that's

0:14:00.080,0:14:03.360
just what it is sometimes given the invasion.

0:14:04.000,0:14:07.440
I'd like to acknowledge and thank Elders past

0:14:07.440,0:14:10.720
and present and the ancestors, specifically our

0:14:10.720,0:14:13.680
families in this instance, for nurturing and

0:14:13.680,0:14:15.920
defending this land so we can all share in

0:14:15.920,0:14:20.320
it here in what we in our family believe is

0:14:20.320,0:14:25.120
a very special welcoming place um including

0:14:25.120,0:14:29.920
our immigrant ancestors. 
Always was always will be

0:14:29.920,0:14:32.880
unceded Aboriginal land and 
most significant of

0:14:33.520,0:14:36.160
I acknowledge all the mob and there's a lot

0:14:36.160,0:14:39.920
here today um and are part of this employment

0:14:39.920,0:14:44.880
community. This is our story. Our Centre for

0:14:44.880,0:14:47.440
Indigenous People and Work was launched right

0:14:47.440,0:14:51.520
here last May in this very spot by our friend,

0:14:51.520,0:14:53.920
Tidda, and colleague Katie 
Kiss, the Aboriginal and

0:14:53.920,0:14:56.880
Torres Strait Islander 
Social Justice Commissioner.

0:14:56.880,0:14:59.520
And as she says, imagine 
saying that five times a

0:14:59.520,0:15:04.800
day. Not even a year ago. I note that not only

0:15:04.800,0:15:07.600
are we launching Gari Yala 
2 here today, but our

0:15:07.600,0:15:11.680
Tidda Carla McGrath is up on Worimi, facilitating

0:15:11.680,0:15:15.440
a mob-designed, mob-led, 
mob-facilitated talent

0:15:15.440,0:15:18.560
development program on our behalf that we have

0:15:18.560,0:15:21.680
developed for Uniting, yesterday and today. So,

0:15:21.680,0:15:25.120
it's a really big day for us today. Um, you

0:15:25.120,0:15:27.760
can get brochures for that program down the

0:15:27.760,0:15:30.000
back if you're interested. I'd never miss an

0:15:30.000,0:15:34.000
opportunity. At that time, at that launch,

0:15:34.000,0:15:38.160
I talked about the central driver for our Centre

0:15:38.160,0:15:42.080
is that of owning our 
employment narrative and the

0:15:42.080,0:15:44.560
importance of creating an employment community

0:15:44.560,0:15:48.400
of goodwill, whereby our 
ownership is respected,

0:15:48.400,0:15:51.920
consisting of and embracing people of goodwill

0:15:51.920,0:15:56.240
who are prepared to work with us on those terms.

0:15:56.880,0:15:58.960
Looking out this morning tells me that we are

0:15:58.960,0:16:01.520
quite some way to achieving that

0:16:01.520,0:16:04.720
goal and through producing Gari Yala 2, we have

0:16:04.720,0:16:08.560
and continue to see this 
in action. So here's

0:16:08.560,0:16:11.840
my attempt at recognising the important people in

0:16:11.840,0:16:15.600
today's event and how it 
got here and in bringing

0:16:15.600,0:16:19.840
this seminal piece of work to IRL- as my off

0:16:19.840,0:16:22.000
offspring say. For those who don't understand

0:16:22.000,0:16:25.280
that means in real life. Um, first I'd like to

0:16:25.280,0:16:28.400
recognize our extraordinary panellists, Karen,

0:16:28.400,0:16:32.000
um, my tidda and friend and Giri, who both lead

0:16:32.000,0:16:35.680
with ambition, courage, and grace for a better

0:16:35.680,0:16:38.800
place here. Thanks both for your constant support

0:16:38.800,0:16:42.160
for everything we do and 
the examples you set us

0:16:42.160,0:16:46.480
through clear, mindful, purposeful leadership.

0:16:46.480,0:16:48.640
Thank you, Richard, for bringing your seniority

0:16:48.640,0:16:51.200
and authority to NAB's commitment. It takes

0:16:51.200,0:16:55.120
leaders such as yourselves for change to

0:16:55.120,0:16:58.880
yourself for change to happen. And our amazing

0:16:58.880,0:17:02.720
PVC, where is she? Oh, there she is. Robynne,

0:17:02.720,0:17:05.360
you're one of the reasons I work here. You know

0:17:05.360,0:17:10.080
that. And in your stellar legal career and

0:17:10.080,0:17:12.640
all the things you've done, I think this job is

0:17:12.640,0:17:14.800
a culmination, and we're just grateful for you

0:17:14.800,0:17:19.600
every day. In establishing the CIPW over the last

0:17:19.600,0:17:22.240
year, we have established 
an Advisory Panel as its

0:17:22.240,0:17:25.760
governance mechanism. All Indigenous of course.

0:17:25.760,0:17:28.480
Our chair, the indomitable, 
very clever tidda Tanya

0:17:28.480,0:17:30.960
Hosch isn't able to be here today as she has an

0:17:30.960,0:17:34.160
unwell mother-in-law. But 
we are very grateful to

0:17:34.160,0:17:36.720
Tan who like all of the members who generously

0:17:36.720,0:17:39.440
give us their time, knowledge, and skills.

0:17:39.440,0:17:42.400
our academic for example our academic colleague

0:17:42.400,0:17:45.600
tidda and Aunty and I saw her before Associate

0:17:45.600,0:17:48.960
Professor Sharlene Leroy-Dyer who does so much

0:17:48.960,0:17:52.560
for us on so many levels. 
Kate Russell I'm pretty

0:17:52.560,0:17:56.640
sure you're here the extraordinary um CEO of

0:17:56.640,0:18:00.800
our colleague organisation Supply Nation, Lara

0:18:00.800,0:18:05.360
Watson the Indigenous Officer 
at the ACTU, Michelle

0:18:05.360,0:18:09.520
Purdy Indigenous Officer AEU, Darren Hammond,

0:18:09.520,0:18:13.520
Lisa Sarago, Adrien Cheetham representing RA and

0:18:13.520,0:18:18.000
Samantha Webster representing 
NAB. Um we are very

0:18:18.000,0:18:21.520
grateful for everything 
you all do in working with

0:18:21.520,0:18:25.520
us. And I'll give a shout out to our lawyer

0:18:25.520,0:18:27.840
Darren Fitler, who provides his outstanding

0:18:27.840,0:18:30.320
services and understanding of and respect

0:18:30.320,0:18:35.120
for our cultural ways to put together our CIPW um

0:18:36.000,0:18:39.520
memorandum of understanding for nicks.

0:18:39.520,0:18:43.120
Twice now, we've had a mob 
expert panel to oversee

0:18:43.120,0:18:45.760
Gari Yala and I'd like to 
acknowledge the members of

0:18:45.760,0:18:48.320
that panel who are here. Matt Roberts-Clifton,

0:18:48.320,0:18:52.000
Sharlene of course, Kate, Adrien, and Lisa

0:18:52.000,0:18:54.800
um who played both those 
roles. Dr. Kiera Donnelly,

0:18:54.800,0:18:59.040
Bree Knapp, Matt Rix, Edie Shepherd, Jade Ward,

0:18:59.040,0:19:01.680
and Amber Roberts. I really hope I haven't

0:19:01.680,0:19:05.520
missed anyone. Um who's been those last two of

0:19:05.520,0:19:07.920
uh Amber's been on the panels for both Gari Yala

0:19:07.920,0:19:10.960
one and two. We literally 
couldn't do this project

0:19:10.960,0:19:13.120
without you and we are so grateful for the work

0:19:13.120,0:19:17.880
you've put in. I want to mention the Gari Yala

0:19:17.880,0:19:21.360
workers. Um, the most important people. Angela

0:19:21.360,0:19:26.480
Daley, who um was my EA and who I miss very,

0:19:26.480,0:19:30.880
very much. Robynne, stop laughing. Robynne stole

0:19:30.880,0:19:34.880
her. Anyway, Ange's here and it's really good

0:19:34.880,0:19:40.720
to see her. It's not funny. 
Robynne. Um, uh, Jane,

0:19:40.720,0:19:43.440
Professor Jane O’Leary, who 
we're so fortunate to have

0:19:43.440,0:19:45.840
willing to work with us. For people who don't

0:19:45.840,0:19:49.840
know, Jane is the preeminent industry diversity

0:19:49.840,0:19:52.960
researcher in the country. She and I established

0:19:52.960,0:19:56.160
the unique uh research function at Diversity

0:19:56.160,0:19:58.800
Council Australia 20 years ago which created

0:19:58.800,0:20:02.560
the unique Australian industry-based research

0:20:02.560,0:20:04.800
that makes recommendations to business and

0:20:04.800,0:20:08.080
industry and has had so 
much impact. Well, I had

0:20:08.080,0:20:11.120
the idea and Jane did the 
work which over the last

0:20:11.120,0:20:15.520
20 years has become a bit 
of a pattern. Last year,

0:20:15.520,0:20:18.320
Jane agreed to come to our Centre to work with us

0:20:18.320,0:20:21.360
to establish our research 
function with us, and

0:20:21.360,0:20:26.640
we're so grateful. My firstborn, self-proclaimed,

0:20:26.640,0:20:31.120
Joshua Gilbert, whose work 
and presence graces me

0:20:31.120,0:20:34.880
every day in his role as 
Assistant Director of the

0:20:34.880,0:20:38.320
Centre and brings his ever even more developing

0:20:38.320,0:20:42.320
Intellect, sensibility and his uncanny ability to

0:20:42.320,0:20:46.000
articulate the magnificent 
patterns of our living

0:20:46.000,0:20:49.280
breathing culture. Josh's sense of strategy

0:20:49.280,0:20:52.880
and his deep, deep insight 
make this work possible.

0:20:52.880,0:20:55.200
I've worked with Jane for over 20 years and Josh

0:20:55.200,0:20:58.720
for 11 and I can say hand 
on heart it's the dream

0:20:58.720,0:21:02.400
team. The very clever Gomeroi Tidda Dr. Olivia

0:21:02.400,0:21:04.720
Evans who worked with us on the first iteration

0:21:04.720,0:21:08.960
of Gari Yala and came back for a second. Um so we

0:21:08.960,0:21:11.840
must be all right to work 
with Olivia. Again, we

0:21:11.840,0:21:14.400
actually really can't do it without you. Um and

0:21:14.400,0:21:16.720
you really are one of the 
best writers around. I

0:21:16.720,0:21:20.560
used to say Katie Kiss, 
Jane O’Leary, Kirsten Gray

0:21:20.560,0:21:22.720
were the best writers I know 
and you're in that

0:21:22.720,0:21:26.240
group now I reckon. I really want to especially

0:21:26.240,0:21:31.200
recognise Dr. Helary Ngo, 
who's here before we

0:21:31.200,0:21:33.840
had to withdraw the Gari Yala partnership from

0:21:33.840,0:21:36.640
the Diversity Council. Helary 
was working there

0:21:36.640,0:21:39.680
with Jane and working on 
Gari Yala. In all my years

0:21:39.680,0:21:41.840
of working in these environments

0:21:41.840,0:21:45.520
of Indigenous and non-Indigenous people

0:21:45.520,0:21:48.880
working together around Indigenous matters,

0:21:48.880,0:21:51.280
Jane and Helary are the most respectful. Where

0:21:51.280,0:21:56.720
are you Helary? There you 
are. Most appreciative

0:21:56.720,0:22:00.560
most open to feedback and guidance

0:22:00.560,0:22:03.600
of any non-Indigenous people of any

0:22:03.600,0:22:06.400
I have worked with. Your respect

0:22:06.400,0:22:09.200
for us and as you say yourself, Helary,

0:22:09.200,0:22:12.240
respect to First Nations culture, the Gari Yala

0:22:12.240,0:22:15.520
team and for this publication. Helary is

0:22:15.520,0:22:18.320
happily still in diversity circles and now works

0:22:18.320,0:22:22.960
at WGEA, so she's still 
around. I'd also like

0:22:22.960,0:22:25.520
to thank the NAB mob who've worked with us to get

0:22:25.520,0:22:28.160
this thing happening, Sam 
Webster and Dino White.

0:22:28.160,0:22:30.800
It's been an absolute joy to work together

0:22:30.800,0:22:34.880
with Dino, mob ways. No big noting, no egos,

0:22:34.880,0:22:37.920
just getting the job done. To everyone involved

0:22:37.920,0:22:40.640
in the long production of 
this report, all I can

0:22:40.640,0:22:43.040
say is thank you. And a little mention of Topaz

0:22:43.040,0:22:46.880
McAuliffe. If you're here, 
you did register Topaz.

0:22:46.880,0:22:49.760
Um but Topaz worked with us on the first report

0:22:49.760,0:22:55.120
as a representative of Coles, 
who were our sponsor

0:22:55.120,0:22:58.400
then one of them and is here as one of the best

0:22:58.400,0:23:01.520
consultants around the place. 
Now to distinguish

0:23:01.520,0:23:04.960
guests I promise Robynne I'm doing them. Darren

0:23:04.960,0:23:07.440
Godwell, Chair of Indigenous 
Business Australia (IBA)

0:23:07.440,0:23:11.280
whose leadership is evident every day. Um, as we

0:23:11.280,0:23:15.680
can see, the leadership space 
IBA has very quickly

0:23:15.680,0:23:18.880
come to occupy since Darren 
was appointed as Chair

0:23:18.880,0:23:21.280
and we are delighted to be 
working in partnership

0:23:21.280,0:23:24.560
with IBA around our pay equity project. Thanks

0:23:24.560,0:23:28.480
brother, Professor Barney 
Glover, Megan Lily, my

0:23:28.480,0:23:33.280
dear mob Carin Percival and 
Dr. Emma Cannen from Jobs

0:23:33.280,0:23:36.320
and Skills Australia (JSA) who 
we respect and admire so

0:23:36.320,0:23:39.920
much and have done so much 
already in such a short

0:23:39.920,0:23:43.040
time to change the understanding 
of the employment

0:23:43.040,0:23:46.400
landscape. We couldn't love you or your work

0:23:46.400,0:23:50.160
anymore. Thank you and for 
asking us to contribute

0:23:50.160,0:23:53.120
to your extraordinary practical game changing

0:23:53.120,0:23:55.760
work. Now, she better still 
be here for this,

0:23:55.760,0:23:59.520
but we note that Professor Ray Cooper, there she

0:23:59.520,0:24:03.040
is. Um, my dear friend, 
Professor Ray Cooper,

0:24:03.600,0:24:06.320
is also here, who while a board member of

0:24:06.320,0:24:10.080
JSA, but also plays her 
leadership role as the

0:24:10.080,0:24:12.640
country's preeminent researcher of women and

0:24:12.640,0:24:15.760
work. We are delighted to also be working

0:24:15.760,0:24:19.360
with Ray in her role as the leader of the amazing

0:24:19.360,0:24:22.560
innovative working for women 
project funded by

0:24:22.560,0:24:26.080
the office for women alongside her colleague Liz

0:24:26.080,0:24:29.600
Hill and Brendan Churchill. 
Thank you very much

0:24:29.600,0:24:32.400
um for your ongoing support Ray and always

0:24:32.400,0:24:36.240
centring our voices with great humility.

0:24:36.240,0:24:38.480
I'd like to acknowledge and welcome the eminent

0:24:38.480,0:24:41.040
members of the employment 
community who are here

0:24:41.040,0:24:45.360
this morning. Alexandra Grayson, DP, Deputy

0:24:45.360,0:24:47.280
President of the Fair Work Commission. It's

0:24:47.280,0:24:49.840
still hard to get my head around that one.

0:24:49.840,0:24:52.720
Um, my old friend Anna Booth, the Fair Work

0:24:52.720,0:24:56.160
Ombudsman, Nicole Calman, Federal Secretary of

0:24:56.160,0:25:00.400
the Australian Education Union 
from UTS. First, so

0:25:00.400,0:25:04.000
firstly, so lovely to see our new Chancellor and

0:25:04.000,0:25:07.040
concurrently co-chair of 
Reconciliation Australia,

0:25:07.040,0:25:09.680
Michael Rose. I'm sure that Michael will bring

0:25:09.680,0:25:14.160
his capacity and understanding 
as a very, very

0:25:14.160,0:25:16.480
long-term supporter of the reconciliation

0:25:16.480,0:25:19.120
movement to this position. In fact, I think

0:25:19.120,0:25:21.600
we met even before you were managing

0:25:21.600,0:25:24.880
partner at Allen's Michael 
through reconciliation

0:25:24.880,0:25:28.480
activities and it's a pretty ace appointment.

0:25:28.480,0:25:31.600
Our dear and very lovely 
brother Scotty Avery,

0:25:31.600,0:25:34.400
Dr. Scott Avery, Associate Dean, Indigenous

0:25:34.400,0:25:36.800
Leadership and Engagement at the school of

0:25:36.800,0:25:39.680
health, who always provides us with support with

0:25:39.680,0:25:44.480
support um and love, black 
love. Sara Denize,

0:25:44.480,0:25:46.960
who's the Interim Dean of the Business School,

0:25:46.960,0:25:49.760
thanks for your ongoing support 
of the Centre. And

0:25:49.760,0:25:54.640
the glorious Kathy Walsh, who is ADR here at the

0:25:54.640,0:25:58.000
Business School, really made 
this Centre happen.

0:25:58.560,0:26:01.040
our former dean at the business school, Carl

0:26:01.040,0:26:03.440
Rhodes, whose commitment 
to self-determination

0:26:03.440,0:26:06.160
for our people gave us the structure of our

0:26:06.160,0:26:08.160
Centre and a special mention even though

0:26:08.160,0:26:10.960
they're not here to distinguish Professor Larissa

0:26:10.960,0:26:13.760
Behrendt, Professor Michael 
McDaniel, and Professor

0:26:13.760,0:26:16.960
Lindon Coombes for creating and maintaining this

0:26:16.960,0:26:21.520
extraordinary space at UTS 
for us to do our work.

0:26:21.520,0:26:25.040
And nearly last but not 
least, the other CEOs, our

0:26:25.040,0:26:28.160
colleagues Lisa Annese from 
Chief Executive Women,

0:26:28.160,0:26:31.200
Lena Nahlous from Diversity Arts, and Adam Davids

0:26:31.200,0:26:34.400
from Career Trackers. We 
appreciate working with

0:26:34.400,0:26:37.120
all of you and we are working with all of you.

0:26:37.120,0:26:40.080
We have so many excellent 
partnerships and these

0:26:40.080,0:26:43.120
are just a few, but to note that we appreciate

0:26:43.120,0:26:45.440
all of you and it's all 
happened really quickly,

0:26:45.440,0:26:50.560
under a year. So why Gari 
Yala and why Gari Yala 2?

0:26:51.440,0:26:54.400
Why is this goal of ours of 
owning the employment

0:26:54.400,0:26:57.520
narrative so important? I was reflecting on

0:26:57.520,0:27:01.120
the weekend going to find it entertaining

0:27:01.120,0:27:05.040
that we actually own Nigel 
Scullion and Alan Tudge.

0:27:05.040,0:27:08.160
Remember him? He knew everything 
about Indigenous

0:27:08.160,0:27:12.880
people and how to fix us. For three long years, I

0:27:12.880,0:27:16.320
sat on the board of IBA and 
I was barraged with the

0:27:16.320,0:27:19.600
thoughts and half-baked ideological obsessions of

0:27:19.600,0:27:23.200
that pair. The pair who spent 
many years going on,

0:27:23.200,0:27:26.480
and I mean going on, to anyone who would listen,

0:27:26.480,0:27:28.480
and many of us who really didn't want to,

0:27:28.480,0:27:31.840
but had to, as they both had at the time, a

0:27:31.840,0:27:34.880
bizarre amount of power about the redeeming

0:27:34.880,0:27:38.400
powers of entrepreneurship. And all any of us

0:27:38.400,0:27:41.040
had to do was start a micro 
or small business

0:27:41.040,0:27:45.360
and all would be well. Please, please don't get

0:27:45.360,0:27:48.640
me wrong. I personally believe 
as a laborist, that

0:27:48.640,0:27:51.520
entrepreneurship offers much, especially to women

0:27:51.520,0:27:54.320
and gender diverse people with community and

0:27:54.320,0:27:58.400
caring responsibilities. But entrepreneurship is

0:27:58.400,0:28:02.400
only a piece of the puzzle 
in what Darren, Josh

0:28:02.400,0:28:04.880
Gilbert and others are now leading in the

0:28:04.880,0:28:08.400
transformation of the Indigenous economy.

0:28:08.400,0:28:13.120
In that transformation, 
employment matters. It galls

0:28:13.120,0:28:16.560
me to the very bone that as 
the colony developed,

0:28:16.560,0:28:20.720
so did the narrative of budging blacks. It was

0:28:20.720,0:28:25.120
and is a key underpinning 
and central theme in

0:28:25.120,0:28:28.080
my view of the unique form of Australian racism

0:28:28.080,0:28:32.400
that is directed towards 
Indigenous people. As mob

0:28:32.400,0:28:36.160
we have always known precisely what

0:28:36.160,0:28:40.560
the issue is as it pertains to job seeking,

0:28:40.560,0:28:44.480
employment participation and certainly, certainly

0:28:44.480,0:28:47.440
promotions, positions and 
career development.

0:28:48.080,0:28:50.400
We could talk all day about the budging blacks

0:28:50.400,0:28:52.720
narrative, its importance 
to the development of

0:28:52.720,0:28:55.760
the colony, and the ways that it's been utilized,

0:28:55.760,0:28:59.200
but we don't have time. What 
was obvious then and

0:28:59.200,0:29:03.200
Now, was and is, that the narrative of Indigenous

0:29:03.200,0:29:06.720
employment pays absolutely 
no attention to the

0:29:06.720,0:29:10.160
views and experiences of Indigenous people.

0:29:10.160,0:29:15.280
There was no research, none, until Gari Yala

0:29:15.280,0:29:17.600
of actual Indigenous people speaking about

0:29:17.600,0:29:20.400
employment experiences and 
Gari Yala remains the

0:29:20.400,0:29:24.640
sole piece. We're so proud of its self-determined

0:29:24.640,0:29:30.320
nature, mob led, mob run, and 
thus mob focused. At the

0:29:30.320,0:29:33.680
inception, Jane and I and Josh had thought what

0:29:33.680,0:29:36.240
we were doing was a research 
piece on the employee

0:29:36.240,0:29:40.960
life cycle. But Gari Yala itself had other ideas.

0:29:40.960,0:29:43.840
There was this surreal moment 
which has led to so

0:29:43.840,0:29:46.800
much discussion opening up and so much impact.

0:29:46.800,0:29:49.680
Josh and Jane and I went to the first Gari

0:29:49.680,0:29:52.880
Yala Expert Panel. Jane was still with DCA then

0:29:52.880,0:29:55.520
and said here's the research 
questions and they

0:29:55.520,0:29:59.600
universally and unanimously said no the central

0:29:59.600,0:30:02.880
issue is racism in all of 
its guises and that's

0:30:02.880,0:30:07.280
what we need to research. So we said okay. We had

0:30:07.280,0:30:09.440
of course thought that this 
was the case but in

0:30:09.440,0:30:12.400
retrospect I think we were doing that thing of oh

0:30:12.400,0:30:15.120
really we need really need 
to raise it nicely or

0:30:15.120,0:30:18.560
there'll be so much push back oh be really upset

0:30:18.560,0:30:21.280
scared of the boss thing 
and so what would have

0:30:21.280,0:30:26.000
been the point. Here we are six years and much

0:30:26.000,0:30:28.960
referendum like Pauline 
Hansen's hair dye coloured

0:30:28.960,0:30:33.200
water under the bridge later, and we are now

0:30:33.200,0:30:35.760
literally in the middle of a 
parliamentary inquiry

0:30:36.560,0:30:39.920
into racism against First Nations people

0:30:39.920,0:30:42.720
called by a black woman and 
Chaired by a black

0:30:42.720,0:30:46.000
woman. We will be ensuring that the employment

0:30:46.000,0:30:49.680
experience is central in that inquiry in the

0:30:49.680,0:30:52.080
commensurate discussion and in the subsequent

0:30:52.080,0:30:55.840
recommendations. This data is so crucial.

0:30:55.840,0:30:58.320
We will also, in partnership, with other

0:30:58.320,0:31:01.840
self-determinationist organisations be

0:31:01.840,0:31:04.640
releasing the very rich intersectional data that

0:31:04.640,0:31:08.320
we have procured. We would 
never think that we can

0:31:08.320,0:31:11.280
work around intersectional data without working

0:31:11.280,0:31:14.640
with the representative 
groups, and we're very

0:31:14.640,0:31:17.440
much looking forward to this next stage of data

0:31:17.440,0:31:20.080
releases. So talk soon, 
Scotty whether you like

0:31:20.080,0:31:23.840
it or not brother. We will be ensuring that the

0:31:23.840,0:31:26.880
employment market is central 
to this discussion at

0:31:26.880,0:31:30.320
this exciting time of the 
rightful development led

0:31:30.320,0:31:33.920
by Darren and the IBA board, 
including Josh of the

0:31:33.920,0:31:42.080
Indigenous economy #Indigenous 
wages #anti-racism #

0:31:42.080,0:31:45.120
Indigenous pay equity and we 
will be guided by our

0:31:45.120,0:31:51.280
data. We're so grateful to the 1,000 plus mob who

0:31:51.280,0:31:54.240
participated in both surveys 
for trusting us with

0:31:54.240,0:31:57.120
their experiences, much of which can be really

0:31:57.120,0:32:02.800
retraumatizing. In my view, 
this is just the start

0:32:02.800,0:32:06.560
hopefully of a much more sophisticated discussion

0:32:06.560,0:32:09.600
about Indigenous people and work. We are

0:32:09.600,0:32:12.080
collecting the data. We are beginning to create

0:32:12.080,0:32:15.520
an understanding in the broad 
community that the

0:32:15.520,0:32:20.480
bludging blacks narrative is just wrong. There

0:32:20.480,0:32:23.200
is a deepening understanding that we

0:32:23.200,0:32:28.480
are good for much, much 
else than low-skill low pay

0:32:28.480,0:32:31.680
government subsidised positions. 
We don't need to

0:32:31.680,0:32:35.120
rely on the money of billionaire philanthropists

0:32:35.120,0:32:39.520
to run our organisation. We 
earn it. Thanks for

0:32:39.520,0:32:42.480
coming to our launch. It's amazing looking at

0:32:42.480,0:32:46.320
all of you. Um for your 
support for Gari Yala and

0:32:46.320,0:32:49.920
for your Centre and those people who support me.

0:32:49.920,0:32:53.920
So the Gari Yala workers and 
um all the ladies like

0:32:53.920,0:32:57.040
Ray Cooper and my husband who's actually here. I

0:32:57.040,0:32:58.880
don't think I've ever seen 
it. We don't normally

0:32:58.880,0:33:02.000
do that kind of thing. Yeah. Do work things

0:33:02.000,0:33:07.760
together. Um, we have indeed begun to create

0:33:07.760,0:33:11.040
an employment community of goodwill, and here you

0:33:11.040,0:33:14.400
are, that respects the skills 
and contribution of

0:33:14.400,0:33:18.320
Indigenous people and our right to self-determine

0:33:18.320,0:33:23.280
our own working futures free 
of racism. One last

0:33:23.280,0:33:28.320
thank you to Gary Highland, who does our media.

0:33:28.320,0:33:32.000
Where are you? Thank you 
so much. There he is.

0:33:32.000,0:33:36.640
Um, sterling job as always. And to Spiro from

0:33:36.640,0:33:40.240
Clem's, our food today is 
from Clem's Chicken

0:33:40.240,0:33:43.520
Shop. I don't know if you're not from Sydney or

0:33:43.520,0:33:45.600
you're not mob, you probably 
won't understand

0:33:45.600,0:33:48.240
the significance of that to our community. A,

0:33:48.240,0:33:51.200
it is the best chicken shop 
on the planet. B,

0:33:51.200,0:33:55.200
Spiro and his family feed our people, sponsor our

0:33:55.200,0:33:58.800
sport teams, take food around 
to our neighbourhood

0:33:58.800,0:34:02.800
centres when it's left over. They are the best of

0:34:02.800,0:34:06.400
Australians, and thank you 
Spiro and of course he

0:34:06.400,0:34:10.720
gave us a deal and that's 
what the lunch is today.

0:34:10.720,0:34:23.520
Um as fitting. So thanks 
everyone for being here.

0:34:23.520,0:34:26.880
Thanks Nareen for that very 
warm acknowledgement

0:34:26.880,0:34:31.280
and taking us through Gari Yala today. Um, I'd

0:34:31.280,0:34:35.040
now like to invite Olivia 
Evans, Dr. Olivia Evans,

0:34:35.040,0:34:37.920
um, senior lecturer at ANU School of Medicine

0:34:37.920,0:34:49.120
and Psychology to kick off the findings.

0:34:49.120,0:34:51.920
I think you had some slides you didn't quite

0:34:51.920,0:34:56.960
get through, Nareen, but fantastic speech.

0:34:56.960,0:34:59.680
So hi everyone. I'm Olivia Evans. I'm a proud

0:34:59.680,0:35:02.080
Gomeroi woman and a senior 
lecturer in psychology

0:35:02.080,0:35:04.480
at Australian National University and I've had

0:35:04.480,0:35:06.880
the privilege of being part 
of the Gari Yala team

0:35:06.880,0:35:10.000
since 2020. First as an Expert Panellist and now

0:35:10.000,0:35:12.480
as part of the research team, 
and as Nareen said

0:35:12.480,0:35:14.560
it's been such an enjoyable and enriching and

0:35:14.560,0:35:17.760
also a therapeutic experience 
but I ran to come

0:35:17.760,0:35:20.560
back when they asked me. Uh so I'd also like to

0:35:20.560,0:35:22.080
begin by acknowledging the 
Traditional Owners

0:35:22.080,0:35:24.240
of the land we're meeting on today and pay

0:35:24.240,0:35:26.240
my respects to Elders past and present. And

0:35:26.240,0:35:27.920
I also want to acknowledge the Aboriginal and

0:35:27.920,0:35:31.040
Torres Strait Islander pioneers, 
workers, leaders,

0:35:31.040,0:35:33.440
and resistors who carved out space for us in

0:35:33.440,0:35:36.160
workplaces across the country. 
For generations,

0:35:36.160,0:35:38.400
our mob have pushed open doors that weren't

0:35:38.400,0:35:41.840
built for us, carried the 
load of educating others

0:35:41.840,0:35:44.400
long before workplaces recognised the value of

0:35:44.400,0:35:47.280
cultural knowledge and stood 
firm so that future

0:35:47.280,0:35:49.840
generations might walk more freely. And without

0:35:49.840,0:35:52.080
this their efforts, we wouldn't 
be here discussing

0:35:52.080,0:35:55.840
these issues today so openly. As Nareen outlined,

0:35:55.840,0:35:59.520
this year or last year, we heard from 1,100

0:35:59.520,0:36:02.560
Indigenous employees and their responses show a

0:36:02.560,0:36:05.760
familiar contrast. pride and 
identity in one hand,

0:36:05.760,0:36:09.440
but ongoing racism and a lack of cultural safety

0:36:09.440,0:36:12.000
on the other. While many 
organisations are more

0:36:12.000,0:36:13.840
visible in their commitments to Indigenous

0:36:13.840,0:36:16.320
peoples, the lived experiences in those

0:36:16.320,0:36:19.760
organisations have not shifted far enough. And I

0:36:19.760,0:36:21.760
want to briefly walk you 
through the key findings

0:36:21.760,0:36:24.080
from the opening chapters of the report and

0:36:24.080,0:36:25.840
then Josh and Jane will do some of the later

0:36:25.840,0:36:29.360
chapters as well. So I want to focus on identity,

0:36:29.360,0:36:31.760
cultural safety, racism, 
and the systems that

0:36:31.760,0:36:35.040
shape workplace experiences. So one of the first

0:36:35.040,0:36:38.320
things that we report on in 
the Gari Yala 2 report is

0:36:38.320,0:36:42.160
identity. Identity is a contentious, political,

0:36:42.160,0:36:45.120
sometimes very complicated, 
personal journey that

0:36:45.120,0:36:47.040
um all Aboriginal and Torres 
Strait Islander people go

0:36:47.040,0:36:50.320
through. But in the Gari 
Yala survey, we ask one

0:36:50.320,0:36:51.920
we asked a couple of very straightforward

0:36:51.920,0:36:54.320
questions. So, one of them is how important

0:36:54.320,0:36:57.600
is it to you to identify in your workplace? And

0:36:57.600,0:36:59.920
86% of respondents said that 
it's important for

0:36:59.920,0:37:01.920
them to identify. They want to be proud in who

0:37:01.920,0:37:04.640
they are and represent their people at work.

0:37:04.640,0:37:07.160
And a similar proportion share their identity in

0:37:07.160,0:37:10.720
some way. So, 56% of people 
talk about it openly,

0:37:10.720,0:37:13.680
while 30% say that they don't try to keep it

0:37:13.680,0:37:15.920
private, so they will uh 
reveal it if they're

0:37:15.920,0:37:18.560
asked. And this reflects pride and a desire

0:37:18.560,0:37:21.120
to bring cultural identity 
into the workplace.

0:37:21.120,0:37:23.200
But we found from our data as well that this

0:37:23.200,0:37:25.840
can come with challenges. 
Many describe mixed

0:37:25.840,0:37:28.880
reactions. So people questioning their identity,

0:37:28.880,0:37:31.280
excess scrutiny when they start identifying,

0:37:31.280,0:37:33.920
or cultural safety that 
felt conditional and them

0:37:33.920,0:37:36.240
being uh the perfect black 
follower representing

0:37:36.240,0:37:39.440
all of their mob. And despite strong pride,

0:37:39.440,0:37:41.920
most respondents don't feel 
fully safe in the

0:37:41.920,0:37:46.120
organisations they work in. 66 uh 60% said their

0:37:46.120,0:37:49.200
workplace was either 
culturally unsafe or only

0:37:49.200,0:37:54.560
um moderately safe and a key finding was that

0:37:54.560,0:37:56.960
um this cultural safety is 
related to all kinds

0:37:56.960,0:38:00.160
of outcomes. So um cultural safety is good for

0:38:00.160,0:38:02.720
workers and it's also good 
for the organisations.

0:38:02.720,0:38:06.000
uh uh people who feel culturally safe and feel

0:38:06.000,0:38:08.320
um that their workplace 
values cultural safety

0:38:08.320,0:38:11.240
are more likely to want to 
stay in those jobs are

0:38:11.240,0:38:14.400
happier um and will work 
harder but yet cultural

0:38:14.400,0:38:17.120
safety is really lagging behind and later Jane

0:38:17.120,0:38:19.760
will talk about what's 
changed since the 2020

0:38:19.760,0:38:22.400
um Gari Yala and this is one of the things where

0:38:22.400,0:38:25.120
we're still lagging behind, 
spoiler alert, sorry

0:38:25.120,0:38:30.240
Jane so then uh as Naren pointed out one of the

0:38:30.240,0:38:33.520
major findings of um the 
first Gari Yala and one

0:38:33.520,0:38:35.840
of the major things that 
we're targeting is racism

0:38:35.840,0:38:38.880
in the workplace and one of 
our key findings is

0:38:38.880,0:38:41.360
that racism remains a regular part of working

0:38:41.360,0:38:43.200
life for many Aboriginal and Torres 
Strait Islander Australian

0:38:43.200,0:38:47.640
employees. So 58% reported that they experienced

0:38:47.640,0:38:50.320
racism work very often, often 
or sometimes which

0:38:50.320,0:38:53.280
I think we can all agree is far too often.

0:38:53.280,0:38:55.520
38% said that they were treated unfairly

0:38:55.520,0:38:57.760
because they were Aboriginal 
and Torres Strait Islander.

0:38:57.760,0:39:00.720
40% still hear racial slurs or jokes about

0:39:00.720,0:39:03.200
Indigenous people in the workplace. And things

0:39:03.200,0:39:06.080
like appearance-based 
comments, stereotyping,

0:39:06.080,0:39:09.280
and belittling occurred at 
least sometimes for 60

0:39:09.280,0:39:13.200
to 70% of respondents. 
Workers described slurs,

0:39:13.200,0:39:15.440
comments about looking Aboriginal and dismissive

0:39:15.440,0:39:17.440
remarks about Indigenous 
people receiving special

0:39:17.440,0:39:19.920
treatment regularly in the workplace, even

0:39:19.920,0:39:22.960
to this day. and some felt that the broader

0:39:22.960,0:39:25.040
social and political events including the

0:39:25.040,0:39:26.800
referendum and public debate that's been

0:39:26.800,0:39:29.760
going around that since have made people more

0:39:29.760,0:39:31.840
comfortable expressing negative reviews. So,

0:39:31.840,0:39:34.280
one of the best things 
about Gari Yala is we have

0:39:34.280,0:39:37.120
these open-ended questions 
where respondents can

0:39:37.120,0:39:38.960
um can sort of voice their 
opinion and give their

0:39:38.960,0:39:41.600
own voice as part of the 
data. And the report

0:39:41.600,0:39:43.520
is full of these quotes. So, I highly recommend

0:39:43.520,0:39:45.120
going through the report 
even if it's just to

0:39:45.120,0:39:48.120
read what people have to say. Um but some of the

0:39:48.120,0:39:50.240
comments about the referendum 
and that political

0:39:50.240,0:39:52.600
thing include after the referendum people

0:39:52.600,0:39:54.480
suddenly had permission to 
be open and direct in

0:39:54.480,0:39:57.600
their racism and the no vote gave a voice to

0:39:57.600,0:40:00.800
racism not our people. 
Participants also noted the

0:40:00.800,0:40:03.200
influence of media coverage and broader cultural

0:40:03.200,0:40:05.840
tensions shaping workplace 
attitudes. Beyond the

0:40:05.840,0:40:08.000
overt behaviours that we 
measured with those items

0:40:08.000,0:40:10.400
I mentioned earlier, many 
respondents described

0:40:10.400,0:40:13.440
quieter forms of racism. 
So their complaints being

0:40:13.440,0:40:16.400
ignored or not addressed, 
retaliation from raising

0:40:16.400,0:40:19.360
issues, so if they spoke up, they got cut down.

0:40:19.360,0:40:21.600
Racist colleagues progressing 
ahead of them, so

0:40:21.600,0:40:23.760
almost being rewarded for 
their racism. And I have

0:40:23.760,0:40:27.760
a quote up here. Um, someone's 
in our data said,

0:40:27.760,0:40:30.560
"Every single person I have reported for racial

0:40:30.560,0:40:34.240
discrimination has been 
promoted." And also being

0:40:34.240,0:40:36.560
perceived as difficult for raising concern.

0:40:36.560,0:40:39.440
So, the angry black woman trope that Nareen

0:40:39.440,0:40:42.360
um talks about quite often, that comes up a lot

0:40:42.360,0:40:44.400
in these experiences that 
people were telling us

0:40:44.400,0:40:48.960
about. And as one respondent 
said, I think really

0:40:48.960,0:40:51.200
nicely summed it up, given 
half the chance and

0:40:51.200,0:40:53.280
trust in our professionalism, we can be assets

0:40:53.280,0:40:56.320
to the organisation, but 
many organisations now

0:40:56.320,0:40:58.320
have reps, training, cultural leave, and

0:40:58.320,0:41:01.760
identified positions. Um and yet there's

0:41:01.760,0:41:06.600
still not that investment 
in um our people and uh

0:41:06.600,0:41:08.960
these initiatives sit alongside 
persistent racism

0:41:08.960,0:41:13.200
and cultural safety as our data shows. Um there

0:41:13.200,0:41:15.360
people said one of the 
respondents said people do

0:41:15.360,0:41:17.800
the courses they have wraps but we still have to

0:41:17.800,0:41:22.480
stay quiet in the face of 
racism. And those who um

0:41:22.480,0:41:24.800
experienced racism were 
three times less likely to

0:41:24.800,0:41:27.280
be satisfied at work, three 
times less likely to

0:41:27.280,0:41:29.880
recommend their workplace, and three times more

0:41:29.880,0:41:32.160
likely to plan on leaving. 
So, it's a serious

0:41:32.160,0:41:35.200
issue that um when people experience racism,

0:41:35.200,0:41:36.960
they no longer want to be in that workplace,

0:41:36.960,0:41:39.000
which is quite obvious, but I think for

0:41:39.000,0:41:41.520
organisations seeing the data that um that

0:41:41.520,0:41:44.080
starkly can can be a powerful 
message about why we

0:41:44.080,0:41:48.560
need to combat this. And then 
what are workplaces

0:41:48.560,0:41:51.680
doing? Well, the data shows that there's been

0:41:51.680,0:41:55.360
some um movement in bringing in um different

0:41:55.360,0:41:57.520
policies and things like that. A lot of the more

0:41:57.520,0:42:01.840
public facing um uh public facing activities

0:42:01.840,0:42:06.040
um but those who support structures remain

0:42:06.040,0:42:09.360
limited. So 63% said that 
their workplace does not

0:42:09.360,0:42:11.920
provide anti-discrimination 
training that includes

0:42:11.920,0:42:15.040
Indigenous racism and 69% 
said that workplaces

0:42:15.040,0:42:17.520
does not have a racism complaint procedure. And

0:42:17.520,0:42:19.680
I think as a team we think 
that these two things

0:42:19.680,0:42:22.320
are the bare minimum that 
organisations should be

0:42:22.320,0:42:24.640
doing. And so it's it's quite 
distressing that u

0:42:24.640,0:42:27.240
most organisations aren't 
doing that. And only one

0:42:27.240,0:42:30.480
in five workplaces had both. 
So four out of five

0:42:30.480,0:42:34.400
um only have one or or none of these. And only

0:42:34.400,0:42:37.120
38% of those who had who reported that they

0:42:37.120,0:42:39.600
experienced racism said 
that they had the support

0:42:39.600,0:42:43.040
they needed um when they 
experienced that racism.

0:42:43.040,0:42:44.880
And these findings tell us that Indigenous

0:42:44.880,0:42:46.160
people are committed to bringing their whole

0:42:46.160,0:42:48.720
selves to work, but workplaces are not yet

0:42:48.720,0:42:51.040
meeting that commitment in return. Racism,

0:42:51.040,0:42:54.040
both overt and systemic, continues to shape

0:42:54.040,0:42:55.840
experiences, career 
opportunities, and cultural

0:42:55.840,0:42:58.160
safeties. And the structures required to prevent

0:42:58.160,0:43:00.800
and respond to racism are 
often missing. I think

0:43:00.800,0:43:03.360
this is a clear narrative that came through from

0:43:03.360,0:43:05.920
the data and also through 
those quotes that we got

0:43:05.920,0:43:09.920
from people um who took part in the survey. So,

0:43:09.920,0:43:12.240
uh, change needs to happen 
and in the meantime,

0:43:12.240,0:43:14.720
our people are suffering in these organisations.

0:43:14.720,0:43:23.760
And with that, I'll now hand over to Josh.

0:43:23.760,0:43:28.560
Thanks, Olivia. Wiyabu, Guudji Yiigu good mob.

0:43:28.560,0:43:30.960
Firstly, I too would like to acknowledge

0:43:30.960,0:43:32.960
the Traditional Owners of these lands and pay

0:43:32.960,0:43:36.480
my deepest respects to Elders 
past and present.

0:43:36.480,0:43:39.680
Whenever I'm present here in Sydney,

0:43:39.680,0:43:41.680
I think about the foundations of our mob in

0:43:41.680,0:43:44.560
business and at work in the early days of the

0:43:44.560,0:43:47.200
colony. I'm reminded by 
Rowena Welsh Jarrett's

0:43:47.200,0:43:49.320
research that talks about Indigenous women

0:43:49.320,0:43:51.280
trading from the early days 
of the arrival of

0:43:51.280,0:43:55.360
the big ships and the foundations that this set.

0:43:55.360,0:43:57.520
The foundations of the 
importance of Indigenous

0:43:57.520,0:44:00.000
knowledge in this new economy particularly

0:44:00.000,0:44:02.160
comes to mind as we discuss the reliance

0:44:02.160,0:44:04.560
and interest in our mob-based knowledge systems

0:44:04.560,0:44:10.080
going forward. Today in the 
2026 Gari Yala report,

0:44:10.080,0:44:12.480
we want to introduce you to a new term

0:44:12.480,0:44:17.360
and that is unpaid workplace demands.

0:44:17.360,0:44:19.680
After much discussion about cultural

0:44:19.680,0:44:22.960
and/or colonial loads and identity strain,

0:44:22.960,0:44:25.360
we have decided it is imperative to change

0:44:25.360,0:44:28.720
the terminology. We've been hearing since

0:44:28.720,0:44:31.560
your release of the initial Gari Yala report in

0:44:31.560,0:44:33.760
2020 that the previous 
terms were frustrating

0:44:33.760,0:44:37.440
to Indigenous people. We found that the previous

0:44:37.440,0:44:40.160
terms did not clearly 
articulate Aboriginal and

0:44:40.160,0:44:43.000
Torres Strait Islander workers 
concerns that they are

0:44:43.000,0:44:45.840
doing additional Indigenous-related 
work on top of

0:44:45.840,0:44:48.400
their usual job and that 
they weren't getting paid

0:44:48.400,0:44:53.120
for it. Some Indigenous people 
feel a cultural or

0:44:53.120,0:44:56.720
personal responsibility to 
do this work, preferring

0:44:56.720,0:45:02.880
to share and the pertaining to this work and

0:45:02.880,0:45:05.560
the language of cultural colonial load is often

0:45:05.560,0:45:07.440
deficit-based and doesn't 
reflect the strengths

0:45:07.440,0:45:10.400
and benefits Indigenous people bring to the

0:45:10.400,0:45:13.680
workplace. Therefore, after 
consultation with our

0:45:13.680,0:45:16.960
expert panel who I want to thank very deeply

0:45:16.960,0:45:19.520
for their consideration, we 
have decided to step

0:45:19.520,0:45:22.920
away from the language of 
cultural load, colonial

0:45:22.920,0:45:25.760
load, cultural responsibility 
and/or identity

0:45:25.760,0:45:29.120
strain and move towards the language of unpaid

0:45:29.120,0:45:32.720
workplace demands. We prefer 
the language of

0:45:32.720,0:45:35.920
unpaid workplace demands, 
as it clearly articulates

0:45:35.920,0:45:39.360
that this work is additional 
work done by Aboriginal or

0:45:39.360,0:45:43.080
Torres Strait Islander 
employees drawing upon their

0:45:43.080,0:45:46.480
community cultural and 
spiritual connections is

0:45:46.480,0:45:48.840
work beyond core responsibilities within their

0:45:48.840,0:45:52.960
position descriptions that 
it's unpaid and that

0:45:52.960,0:45:56.080
Workplaces, who instill this workload upon their

0:45:56.080,0:45:59.840
Staff, should recognise and 
recompense this effort.

0:46:01.920,0:46:06.080
We asked the 1,158 Indigenous respondents

0:46:06.080,0:46:08.000
about whether they received compensation

0:46:08.000,0:46:11.520
for the additional workplace demands placed upon

0:46:11.520,0:46:14.480
them. Three in four said 
that the organisation

0:46:14.480,0:46:18.400
did not formally recognise this work. Just

0:46:18.400,0:46:20.560
one in five were employed in workplaces

0:46:20.560,0:46:23.720
with a financial compensation policy for

0:46:23.720,0:46:26.320
additional work based on their identity.

0:46:27.200,0:46:30.480
So what's driving mob to do this work? Given

0:46:30.480,0:46:34.640
it's often unpaid or 
unrecognised respondents

0:46:34.640,0:46:36.640
shared that the primary reasons for doing so

0:46:36.640,0:46:39.120
was that they felt a personal responsibility

0:46:39.120,0:46:42.720
54% and/or that they wanted to ensure the

0:46:42.720,0:46:45.200
work was done in a culturally appropriate

0:46:45.200,0:46:50.240
manner. 52% shared that mob shared I feel I

0:46:50.240,0:46:53.520
would disrespect my culture 
if I don't do it.

0:46:53.520,0:46:55.600
I want to ensure that Traditional Custodians

0:46:55.600,0:46:57.920
are respected. I want my 
children to feel proud

0:46:57.920,0:47:00.160
of their culture and understand that their

0:47:00.160,0:47:04.240
giving back will lift up future generations.

0:47:04.240,0:47:08.600
Some of it was also fear-based because if I

0:47:08.600,0:47:10.960
don't non-Indigenous colleagues without any

0:47:10.960,0:47:13.520
formal or trained understanding advise companies

0:47:13.520,0:47:16.240
on Aboriginal and Torres Strait 
Islander matters that

0:47:16.240,0:47:20.320
are damaging to mob and our communities.

0:47:20.320,0:47:22.080
Someone else said, "I work on a site where

0:47:22.080,0:47:24.160
there is no cultural awareness training provided

0:47:24.160,0:47:27.440
to employees. I've had 
numerous colleagues state

0:47:27.440,0:47:30.120
that I'm the only Aboriginal 
person that they have

0:47:30.120,0:47:34.320
ever connected with. To track 
changes over time,

0:47:34.320,0:47:36.440
we measured cultural load in the same way as

0:47:36.440,0:47:40.640
the 2020 Gari Yala survey. 
We asked four survey

0:47:40.640,0:47:43.040
questions around extra workplace demands placed

0:47:43.040,0:47:46.720
upon respondents because 
of their identity. We

0:47:46.720,0:47:49.600
found 64% of Aboriginal and 
Torres Strait Islander workers

0:47:49.600,0:47:53.040
survey for Gari Yala 2 
experienced a high cultural

0:47:53.040,0:47:57.520
load. This has changed 
little since the 2020 Gari

0:47:57.520,0:48:02.240
Yala 2020 Gari Yala survey 
of 63%. It is clear

0:48:02.240,0:48:05.640
that there is much work to 
do in relation to these

0:48:05.640,0:48:11.040
expectations either forced 
upon mob or assumed.

0:48:11.040,0:48:13.600
For the first time ever, we also tried

0:48:13.600,0:48:16.560
to quantify unpaid workplace demands.

0:48:16.560,0:48:19.440
We specifically asked the Gari Yala 2 survey

0:48:19.440,0:48:22.240
respondents how many hours 
per week on average

0:48:22.240,0:48:25.200
they spent on unpaid cultural work that was not

0:48:25.200,0:48:29.600
part of their formal workload. 
What we found is

0:48:29.600,0:48:35.400
alarming. One in two worked at least one or more

0:48:35.400,0:48:41.280
hours per week unpaid. One 
in three work three

0:48:41.280,0:48:44.560
or more hours per week unpaid. And for one

0:48:44.560,0:48:51.120
in five, they work six or more hours unpaid.

0:48:51.120,0:48:54.880
Over a year, we estimate that 55% of mob are

0:48:54.880,0:48:58.480
working an additional week 
unpaid across their

0:48:58.480,0:49:02.880
normal working year. 34% 
are working an additional

0:49:02.880,0:49:07.120
three weeks unpaid across 
that year. and 20%,

0:49:07.120,0:49:09.800
one in five, are working an extra seven

0:49:09.800,0:49:14.160
weeks unpaid across that year. At the most

0:49:14.160,0:49:17.040
conservative level, one in two Indigenous

0:49:17.040,0:49:19.840
people are working an additional year,

0:49:19.840,0:49:22.240
a whole year across their careers

0:49:22.240,0:49:24.800
on unpaid workplace demands.

0:49:25.520,0:49:28.800
And for those at the top end, we estimate that

0:49:28.800,0:49:32.880
one in five, 20% are working 
an additional seven

0:49:32.880,0:49:35.840
years unpaid across their careers on these

0:49:35.840,0:49:41.920
unpaid workplace demands. Completely unpaid.

0:49:41.920,0:49:44.160
In addition, we sought to quantify workplace

0:49:44.160,0:49:47.040
demands related to Indigenous 
events. That stat

0:49:47.040,0:49:49.200
before didn't include things like Reconciliation

0:49:49.200,0:49:52.800
Week and NAIDOC Week. It's 
just standard activities.

0:49:52.800,0:49:54.640
This additional work recognises the

0:49:54.640,0:49:56.000
additional demands placed upon mob

0:49:56.000,0:49:58.280
during network week Reconciliation Week or

0:49:58.280,0:50:01.840
other Indigenous cultural initiatives. We

0:50:01.840,0:50:03.920
found that in addition to the unpaid

0:50:03.920,0:50:06.240
workplace demands detailed earlier,

0:50:06.240,0:50:07.920
one in two full-time Indigenous

0:50:07.920,0:50:10.000
employees spent six or more hours

0:50:10.000,0:50:13.440
per year organising and running Indigenous

0:50:13.440,0:50:16.800
related workplace events for 
their organisation.

0:50:18.240,0:50:20.240
We hope that this new framing helps

0:50:20.240,0:50:22.000
articulate the extra demands placed upon

0:50:22.000,0:50:23.360
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

0:50:23.360,0:50:26.000
people at work because of their

0:50:26.000,0:50:28.640
identity. It's our aspiration that this

0:50:28.640,0:50:31.200
new terminology assists in conversations in

0:50:31.200,0:50:34.840
bargaining and in work, 
recognising the incredible

0:50:34.840,0:50:39.920
contributions our mob bring 
to the workplace.

0:50:39.920,0:50:42.120
Before handing to Professor Jane O’Leary, the

0:50:42.120,0:50:44.880
research director at CIPW to discuss what's

0:50:44.880,0:50:47.200
changed since the last Gari Yala report,

0:50:47.200,0:50:49.280
I'd like to express my deep thanks to the

0:50:49.280,0:50:52.680
1,158 Indigenous people who shared their

0:50:52.680,0:50:55.200
voice detailing their experiences of work,

0:50:55.200,0:50:59.120
which are often challenging. I also want to note

0:50:59.120,0:51:02.160
our incredible expert panel 
who provided so much

0:51:02.160,0:51:04.760
support and consideration throughout this

0:51:04.760,0:51:07.040
project and to the NAB Foundation for your

0:51:07.040,0:51:08.880
support in being able to conduct the project.

0:51:08.880,0:51:12.480
Thank you. And lastly, 
because Nareen thanked

0:51:12.480,0:51:16.280
everyone else except for herself, I want to give

0:51:16.280,0:51:25.680
a special shout out to 
Professor Nareen Young.

0:51:25.680,0:51:27.520
We have Nareen's leadership and

0:51:27.520,0:51:29.040
wisdom to credit for this research

0:51:29.040,0:51:31.680
even existing. her resilience and

0:51:31.680,0:51:32.960
perseverance to ensuring it tells

0:51:32.960,0:51:35.560
the truth of Indigenous workers and their

0:51:35.560,0:51:37.520
experiences and knowledge in framing the

0:51:37.520,0:51:39.920
project and the recommendations for future

0:51:39.920,0:51:52.480
workplaces. Gathay Nyiirun, 
let us go together.

0:51:52.480,0:51:56.520
Thanks Josh and Olivia. Um, I wanted to start by

0:51:56.520,0:51:58.720
acknowledging the Traditional 
Owners of the land

0:51:58.720,0:52:00.720
on which we're meeting today and pay my respects

0:52:00.720,0:52:04.560
to Elders past and present. 
And I wanted also to

0:52:04.560,0:52:07.320
take a moment to thank Nareen and Josh and

0:52:07.320,0:52:09.520
Olivia for inviting me to work with them on

0:52:09.520,0:52:12.080
this project. Gari Yala, as a non-Indigenous

0:52:12.080,0:52:15.120
person, I'm very conscious 
of how fortunate I

0:52:15.120,0:52:17.200
am to work with them and to work with them

0:52:17.200,0:52:20.880
on such a similar project with Gari Yala.

0:52:20.880,0:52:25.240
Uh so my mission is to speak to you today about

0:52:25.240,0:52:28.000
what's changed since Gari 
Yala in 2020 when we

0:52:28.000,0:52:32.200
did the inaugural survey. And as you've heard in

0:52:32.200,0:52:36.560
2025 we had over a thousand 
Indigenous employees.

0:52:36.560,0:52:39.720
Is that better? Oh, thank you for letting me

0:52:39.720,0:52:44.240
know. Um so in 2025 as we've 
heard we had over

0:52:44.240,0:52:47.080
a thousand Indigenous employees again speak

0:52:47.080,0:52:49.200
truth about their workplace experiences and

0:52:49.200,0:52:52.720
their message was really clear and that is that

0:52:52.720,0:52:55.520
um organisations have made 
some progress but not

0:52:55.520,0:53:00.880
enough. So I'll start with the some progress. So

0:53:00.880,0:53:03.200
there have been some small 
gains. So we've seen

0:53:03.200,0:53:07.160
a bit of an uplift. More employees are actively

0:53:07.160,0:53:09.600
sharing their Indigenous 
identity at work. that

0:53:09.600,0:53:16.000
that went from 51% in 2020 
to 56% in 2025. We also

0:53:16.000,0:53:19.440
measured nine forms of racism 
and on seven of them

0:53:19.440,0:53:23.760
there was a slight easing in racism levels. But

0:53:23.760,0:53:26.160
before we get too excited about the progress

0:53:26.160,0:53:30.200
um we really need to temper that with the fact

0:53:30.200,0:53:34.000
that racism levels remain 
really stubbornly high.

0:53:34.000,0:53:37.920
And so in both years, for example, one in two

0:53:37.920,0:53:42.560
Indigenous employees experienced 
uh inappropriate

0:53:42.560,0:53:45.200
race-based comments, 
stereotypes, and assumptions

0:53:45.200,0:53:50.320
at work all the time, often 
or sometimes. And

0:53:50.320,0:53:53.440
really importantly, when you look at this

0:53:53.440,0:53:57.120
um the scale of the reduction in prevalence,

0:53:57.120,0:54:00.680
it's small in magnitude. So it averaged out at

0:54:00.680,0:54:04.560
between point 4 and 1% reduction 
per year. And just

0:54:04.560,0:54:07.840
to put that in some very practical terms for us,

0:54:07.840,0:54:12.000
we estimated that at that 
rate of change with no

0:54:12.000,0:54:16.160
further intervention, it's 
going to take 118 years

0:54:16.160,0:54:18.800
before Indigenous employees 
never hear racial

0:54:18.800,0:54:24.840
slurs at work again. That's the year 2143, which

0:54:24.840,0:54:27.920
roughly equates to four 
generations of Aboriginal and

0:54:27.920,0:54:33.440
Torres Strait Islander people. 
So that's um a little

0:54:33.440,0:54:37.200
bit of a brief on some of the 
general changes that

0:54:37.200,0:54:40.320
we noted in the data. We were really interested

0:54:40.320,0:54:43.840
in changes in relation to 
the 10 truths. So this

0:54:43.840,0:54:46.320
for many of you this image 
will be quite familiar.

0:54:46.320,0:54:49.120
This is an image from the 
2020 Gari Yala report

0:54:49.120,0:54:52.720
and what we did was come up with 10 truths

0:54:52.720,0:54:56.240
on how organisations can centre the voices

0:54:56.240,0:54:58.720
of Indigenous employees workplace experiences

0:54:58.720,0:55:01.760
to create workplace inclusion. So charts are

0:55:01.760,0:55:04.720
um provides a call to action for employees and a

0:55:04.720,0:55:08.400
chart forward. And um what 
we wanted to see is in

0:55:08.400,0:55:11.040
five years time to what 
extent have organisations

0:55:11.040,0:55:14.640
actually enacted those 10 
truths and the short

0:55:14.640,0:55:19.440
version is we were 
disappointed. So on this slide

0:55:19.440,0:55:21.920
you can see that we found 
there was improvement on

0:55:21.920,0:55:26.240
one truth and that truth 
was around organisations

0:55:26.240,0:55:30.160
using guiding principles to 
inform the way they

0:55:30.160,0:55:33.040
did Indigenous employment and 
the Indigenous community

0:55:33.040,0:55:35.600
engagement to make clear to 
non-Indigenous people

0:55:35.600,0:55:38.680
in the workplace how this is meant to work in

0:55:38.680,0:55:41.600
practice. There were three 
truths where there was

0:55:41.600,0:55:44.240
slight improvement and they were around making

0:55:44.240,0:55:47.440
sure Indigenous work is 
Indigenous-led and that

0:55:47.440,0:55:50.440
um cultural load is recognised 
and addressed. But

0:55:50.440,0:55:52.800
for the majority of those 10 
truths, six of them,

0:55:52.800,0:55:55.680
there was no change whatsoever. And that

0:55:55.680,0:55:58.080
meant no change in relation to truth-telling

0:55:58.080,0:56:00.920
around workplace racism, no change in

0:56:00.920,0:56:02.960
relation to addressing cultural safety,

0:56:02.960,0:56:05.320
addressing identity strain, providing

0:56:05.320,0:56:08.320
meaningful career opportunities, addressing

0:56:08.320,0:56:12.320
um implementing anti-racism 
activity. Um so there

0:56:12.320,0:56:15.200
was a lot that didn't move. 
And I do want to sort

0:56:15.200,0:56:18.320
of have a cautionary note about where we did

0:56:18.320,0:56:20.880
see improvements. They were 
very limited in scale

0:56:20.880,0:56:23.280
and scope. And just to give you an example

0:56:23.280,0:56:35.600
of that, hang on. Let me see if it's gonna

0:56:35.600,0:56:39.200
Oh, maybe the clickers died. Is it possible

0:56:39.200,0:56:42.880
to move to the next slide? I think there's

0:56:42.880,0:56:47.760
some animation in it. So, if you can Yeah. Oh,

0:56:47.760,0:56:51.840
there. Yeah. So, thank you. 
Um so if we look at

0:56:51.840,0:56:54.000
the second truth this was 
around making sure that

0:56:54.000,0:56:57.520
Indigenous work is Indigenous-led, 
and we did find

0:56:57.520,0:57:01.520
more employees said 
Indigenous-focused roles were

0:57:01.520,0:57:03.920
being filled by Indigenous 
people at work all the

0:57:03.920,0:57:06.720
time or often. So that went from 50% in 2020

0:57:06.720,0:57:11.920
to 55% in 2025. But we had 
so many participant

0:57:11.920,0:57:14.880
comments about tokenistic treatment and about

0:57:14.880,0:57:18.160
black cladding in the 
workplace. Um, and there's

0:57:18.160,0:57:21.760
a uh quote on here that says, "Being identified

0:57:21.760,0:57:24.320
leads to tokenism." Oh, 
you're Aboriginal. Let's

0:57:24.320,0:57:26.240
put you on the project. And then you later find

0:57:26.240,0:57:28.480
out that the job had a requirement to place

0:57:28.480,0:57:32.480
Aboriginal people on it to 
even win the work. Um,

0:57:32.480,0:57:34.640
so we heard from participants 
that they were hired

0:57:34.640,0:57:37.120
or they were invited to the table just to tick

0:57:37.120,0:57:40.800
a box or to demonstrate workforce diversity,

0:57:40.800,0:57:46.160
not to have any really meaningful input. Um and

0:57:46.160,0:57:48.800
we found the similar pattern 
with truth six and

0:57:48.800,0:57:51.200
seven which is around 
addressing cultural load. So

0:57:51.200,0:57:54.160
there were some comments where 
people said yeah my

0:57:54.160,0:57:57.200
organisation is starting to talk about it. Uh

0:57:57.200,0:57:59.920
but when we said does your organisation have

0:57:59.920,0:58:02.720
a formal policy to recognise 
and address cultural

0:58:02.720,0:58:07.520
load only 25% said their 
workplace did. And to be

0:58:07.520,0:58:10.000
honest when we looked at the descriptions they

0:58:10.000,0:58:13.360
were mostly ad hoc. Um and 
the bottom line is

0:58:13.360,0:58:16.720
as Josh said in the five 
years high cultural load

0:58:16.720,0:58:18.880
hasn't shifted at all. Two 
out of three Indigenous

0:58:18.880,0:58:21.920
employees in 2020 had high cultural load same

0:58:21.920,0:58:24.880
five years later. Um so that is just to give

0:58:24.880,0:58:27.600
you a sense of even though 
their improvements they

0:58:27.600,0:58:31.520
were so limited in scale and 
scope. The last thing

0:58:31.520,0:58:35.040
I want to mention is about 
what showed no progress

0:58:35.040,0:58:38.560
and the truth that we were 
most alarmed about was

0:58:38.560,0:58:42.320
the lack of activity around anti-racism. And

0:58:42.320,0:58:45.600
just to give you some figures 
on that um in both

0:58:45.600,0:58:48.640
years only one in three Indigenous employees

0:58:48.640,0:58:51.040
said their organisation had 
a racism complaint

0:58:51.040,0:58:55.760
procedure. And about in 
both years again just over

0:58:55.760,0:58:58.320
one in three employees said 
their organisation

0:58:58.320,0:59:00.880
provided the bare minimum of anti-discrimination

0:59:00.880,0:59:03.520
training that made mention of Aboriginal and

0:59:03.520,0:59:07.360
Torres Strait Islander people 
and actually only one

0:59:07.360,0:59:11.520
in five had both the procedure 
and the training.

0:59:11.520,0:59:14.080
Um and just to put those figures in a little

0:59:14.080,0:59:17.680
bit of context, the most 
common organisational

0:59:17.680,0:59:21.080
initiative was actually uh organisations marking

0:59:21.080,0:59:24.960
dates of significance like 
NAIDOC week. So we found

0:59:24.960,0:59:31.120
that 68% in both years 2020 25 marked dates

0:59:31.120,0:59:34.320
of significance and we were 
so struck by that

0:59:34.320,0:59:37.040
because that shows that organisations are twice

0:59:37.040,0:59:40.320
as likely to mark days of 
significance as they

0:59:40.320,0:59:42.800
are to have a racism complaint procedure.

0:59:42.800,0:59:44.800
And when you put that in the context of

0:59:44.800,0:59:47.800
the really high levels of racism and their

0:59:47.800,0:59:50.880
intractable nature, that's 
really concerning.

0:59:50.880,0:59:56.240
Um, so on that note, I want 
to pass over to Nareen

0:59:56.240,0:59:59.520
and she will uh lay out for 
you the path forward

0:59:59.520,1:00:02.240
for Australian workplaces 
in light of the findings

1:00:02.240,1:00:14.320
that Josh and Olivia and I have presented.

1:00:17.360,1:00:23.520
She says leaning on Scotty to uh enable my

1:00:23.520,1:00:31.440
movement. Um so for us um and it is been

1:00:31.440,1:00:35.200
six years. These findings make clear that six

1:00:35.200,1:00:39.520
years on, six years from the 
original Gari Yala,

1:00:39.520,1:00:43.920
the path forward does not require new mandates,

1:00:43.920,1:00:47.760
but rather a reaffirmation 
of our original 10

1:00:47.760,1:00:53.880
truths for organisational action and a deeper

1:00:53.880,1:00:57.840
commitment to the practice 
of truth telling to

1:00:57.840,1:01:01.040
move beyond marking the days and commit

1:01:01.040,1:01:05.040
to meaningful truth. listening and truth

1:01:05.040,1:01:10.080
acting. Indigenous workers have generously

1:01:10.080,1:01:15.040
and graciously and I sometimes get amazed at

1:01:15.040,1:01:21.160
the capacity of mob to maintain grace but it

1:01:21.160,1:01:24.480
happens um have have shared 
their truth about

1:01:24.480,1:01:28.800
their workplace experiences. It is absolutely

1:01:28.800,1:01:33.200
time for organisations to 
more deeply listen to,

1:01:33.200,1:01:37.520
learn from, and act on that truth. Thanks for

1:01:37.520,1:01:45.360
coming today. Now, are we 
going straight into

1:01:45.360,1:01:48.960
Yeah, I will jump on. Can you give them

1:01:48.960,1:01:50.800
just having an interaction with my husband,

1:01:50.800,1:01:56.400
Jason Glanville? Is he still here?

1:01:56.400,1:02:04.960
to give you something to give to me. Thanks.

1:02:04.960,1:02:12.720
No, but I might. We'll do that after.

1:02:12.720,1:02:14.960
Hi everyone. Just a bit of a transition. Thank

1:02:14.960,1:02:17.520
you to the research team, to Olivia, Josh,

1:02:17.520,1:02:19.600
Jane, and Nareen for sharing

1:02:19.600,1:02:20.640
the disappointing results.

2026 Gari Yala Panel with UTS logo and Speaking Truth graphic

Gari Yala 2.0 Panel Session

Gari Yala 2.0 Panel Session transcript

0:00:01.120,0:00:05.680
I'd like to welcome Richard 
Mulhallen, NAB Executive

0:00:05.680,0:00:09.360
Talent and our panellists 
to join the stage. Thank

0:00:09.360,0:00:17.600
you for everyone coming up 
on the stag. Richard is

0:00:17.600,0:00:19.920
representing NAB Foundation and will facilitate

0:00:19.920,0:00:23.360
this important panel on anti-racism and what

0:00:23.360,0:00:25.920
workplaces can do around 
Australia. I'll hand over

0:00:25.920,0:00:28.000
to you to introduce that. 
Thank thanks thank you

0:00:28.000,0:00:30.160
Sam. Um, thank you, everyone. 
And how long have we

0:00:30.160,0:00:32.880
got? Cause I feel like you're going to give

0:00:32.880,0:00:35.520
me a wind up when I need 
to. We have until 11:50.

0:00:35.520,0:00:37.600
Excellent. Well, look, thank 
you uh for having me

0:00:37.600,0:00:40.200
today. And before I start, I also just wanted to

0:00:40.200,0:00:43.200
Acknowledge the land on which we meet today. Um

0:00:43.200,0:00:45.920
and the Elders past and present and particularly

0:00:45.920,0:00:47.680
the leadership and wisdom that we have in

0:00:47.680,0:00:51.760
the room today. Uh and just also pay my humble

0:00:51.760,0:00:54.400
thanks for having me on the 
panel on such a really

0:00:54.400,0:01:02.720
important piece of work. So today I'm joined 
by some very esteemed people. First of all

0:01:02.720,0:01:05.640
Karen Mundine, a proud 
Bundjalung woman who was the

0:01:05.640,0:01:08.960
CEO of Reconciliation 
Australia. Welcome. Uh we're

0:01:08.960,0:01:11.800
also joined by Giri Sivaraman, Australia's Race

0:01:11.800,0:01:16.880
Discrimination Commissioner. And butterfingers,

0:01:16.880,0:01:20.160
the the man is injured, so we'll give him a

0:01:20.160,0:01:22.000
. And of course, we welcome back Professor

0:01:22.000,0:01:24.600
Nareen Young. Um, so we're going to go through

0:01:24.600,0:01:27.200
some questions today. I'm going to ask you some

0:01:27.200,0:01:29.440
individual questions given your backgrounds

0:01:29.440,0:01:32.000
and your specialisation and then we'll uh

0:01:32.000,0:01:33.920
open some some broader 
questions to the panel and

0:01:33.920,0:01:37.360
then go to the to the room. 
Um Karen, I'm going to

0:01:37.360,0:01:41.440
start with you. Reeconciliation

0:01:41.440,0:01:44.400
Australia helps organizations uh meet their

0:01:44.400,0:01:47.640
targets to assess reconciliation maturity and

0:01:47.640,0:01:50.240
leadership intent. Um, you and I were talking

0:01:50.240,0:01:53.040
a bit before around the changing dynamics in

0:01:54.240,0:01:57.600
the ecosystem and broader culture,

0:01:58.160,0:02:00.240
off the back of the referendum and other things

0:02:00.240,0:02:03.200
that are at play at the moment. Um, and so I

0:02:03.200,0:02:06.840
wondered what are you finding 
in the market at the

0:02:06.840,0:02:10.080
moment? How are organisations 
responding to that?

0:02:10.080,0:02:12.320
What's working and where do organisations

0:02:12.320,0:02:15.360
need to continue improving? Thank you. Um,

0:02:15.360,0:02:18.520
first of all, I just want to say a big thank you

0:02:18.520,0:02:22.000
to Nareen and the team and 
for this really seminal

0:02:22.000,0:02:25.720
work. It's really important to have data and

0:02:25.720,0:02:28.640
evidence-base to understand what's happening,

0:02:28.640,0:02:30.880
but also to then start thinking about how do

0:02:30.880,0:02:33.200
we address this, what's going to work, what's

0:02:33.200,0:02:37.440
going to change. Um, it's 
really disappointing to

0:02:37.440,0:02:40.640
see that data. But I'm not 
surprised because this

0:02:40.640,0:02:42.480
isn't just happening in workplaces. This

0:02:42.480,0:02:46.080
is happening right across the country. So

0:02:46.080,0:02:49.680
this isn't something peculiar to work. It's a an

0:02:49.680,0:02:53.280
experience that we're all 
having across the board.

0:02:54.000,0:02:56.560
That being said, one of the things that we

0:02:56.560,0:03:00.480
do see um at RA is when there is intention,

0:03:00.480,0:03:02.560
and I'm not saying that reps get it right all

0:03:02.560,0:03:06.000
of the time or all reps are doing great work,

0:03:06.000,0:03:09.360
but when there is intention, when it is a focus

0:03:09.360,0:03:12.720
of an organisation and management and board,

0:03:12.720,0:03:16.840
we do see differences happen. So, we do see

0:03:16.840,0:03:20.000
impact. So, if I think about um our Australian

0:03:20.000,0:03:23.200
Reconciliation Barometer, it sits at about I

0:03:23.200,0:03:25.920
think it's about 51% of people who think that

0:03:25.920,0:03:29.200
Australia is a racist country. It goes up to

0:03:29.200,0:03:32.320
73% within a rap organisation. And that just

0:03:32.320,0:03:34.520
tells me that when you're talking about these

0:03:34.520,0:03:37.600
things, when you are identifying these things,

0:03:37.600,0:03:40.240
it starts to highlight that there is a problem.

0:03:40.240,0:03:42.080
If half of us think there's no problem,

0:03:42.080,0:03:46.640
nothing is going to change. 
The world has changed.

0:03:46.640,0:03:52.640
We're in this much more 
angry, scary world where

0:03:52.640,0:03:56.160
everyone is feeling squeezed. What we saw come

0:03:56.160,0:03:58.720
out throughout the process of the referendum

0:03:58.720,0:04:02.400
um and I think you were saying it gave voice to

0:04:02.400,0:04:05.680
racism. It put a percentage 
on racism to be honest

0:04:05.680,0:04:09.040
and it gave permission for 
people who are feeling

0:04:09.040,0:04:13.120
angry and um squeezed from 
the world on all sorts

0:04:13.120,0:04:15.600
of different things to lash out and blame. And

0:04:15.600,0:04:17.920
the people that always get 
blamed in this country

0:04:17.920,0:04:21.480
are First Nations peoples 
first and foremost. And

0:04:21.480,0:04:23.600
then there's the cascading 
down of other people of

0:04:23.600,0:04:28.800
color and other marginalized minority groups.

0:04:28.800,0:04:31.200
Where does this leave us? There's a lot of work

0:04:31.200,0:04:35.920
to be done here. It's really important that we

0:04:35.920,0:04:38.240
voice it. It's really important and I know this

0:04:38.240,0:04:40.640
is something that Giri talks 
about a lot. We don't

0:04:40.640,0:04:43.360
have language to talk about 
racism. We don't talk

0:04:43.360,0:04:46.800
about racism. we don't talk about the impacts

0:04:46.800,0:04:50.080
of it. And when I think of an organisation like

0:04:50.080,0:05:02.480
um the Royal Australasian College of 
General Practitioners. Thank you. In

0:05:02.480,0:05:05.600
their last RAP, racism came up as a really big

0:05:05.600,0:05:08.800
issue for them. So they have focused on talking

0:05:08.800,0:05:13.280
about racism. They put in a submission into uh

0:05:13.280,0:05:16.400
the Yoorook Commission not 
just talking about the

0:05:16.400,0:05:18.960
historical impact but saying actually this has

0:05:18.960,0:05:21.200
an ongoing impact to the health and well-being

0:05:21.200,0:05:25.040
of First Nations peoples, now, and they're also

0:05:25.040,0:05:28.480
partly driven because it was over 93% of their

0:05:28.480,0:05:31.480
membership said this is 
really important to us and

0:05:31.480,0:05:34.640
we want to have a workplace 
and a profession that

0:05:34.640,0:05:38.560
is free of racism. So that became their focus of

0:05:38.560,0:05:41.360
actually we are going to 
do things and be visible

0:05:41.360,0:05:45.520
about it and be um public about it. So, Yoorook,

0:05:45.520,0:05:49.760
but also um presenting to and speaking about

0:05:49.760,0:05:53.480
um uh there was another commission that they've

0:05:53.480,0:05:59.040
also put into. So, being 
vocal, identifying, and

0:05:59.040,0:06:03.280
then actually having leadership backing this in.

0:06:03.280,0:06:06.320
And leadership is so important, 
isn't it? Uh Giri,

0:06:06.320,0:06:08.480
I'm going to really extend that question to you

0:06:08.480,0:06:11.600
as well. uh we think about 
recent events, Bondi,

0:06:11.600,0:06:13.760
what's going on uh across the Middle East at

0:06:13.760,0:06:17.520
the moment, a rampant US administration

0:06:17.520,0:06:20.800
that seems to enable racism more and more daily.

0:06:20.800,0:06:23.280
Um from your perspective, 
same question. What do

0:06:23.280,0:06:25.360
organisations need to do when facing to

0:06:25.360,0:06:30.240
to ensure there's more inclusion? Yeah,

0:06:30.240,0:06:32.400
thanks. I just want to start by acknowledging

0:06:32.400,0:06:34.240
that it's awesome to be on a panel with two

0:06:34.240,0:06:37.360
strong black women and that's great. It's a real

0:06:37.360,0:06:43.440
privilege to be with the two of you. We know

0:06:43.440,0:06:49.640
it's true. Um so the what has happened I think

0:06:49.640,0:06:52.560
is that organizations have retreated since the

0:06:52.560,0:06:55.520
failed voice referendum 
which is a real tragedy in

0:06:55.520,0:06:59.440
so many ways. Organisations 
have gone backwards.

0:06:59.440,0:07:01.680
They've been at sea. So you combine the failed

0:07:01.680,0:07:05.600
voice referendum with um October 7 and the

0:07:05.600,0:07:09.600
aftermath of October 7, uh organisations don't

0:07:09.600,0:07:11.600
have the racial literacy or the understanding

0:07:11.600,0:07:17.360
to cope with or to enable a space where you can

0:07:17.360,0:07:19.840
have differing views, difficult conversations,

0:07:19.840,0:07:22.800
but still maintain the cultural safety of the

0:07:22.800,0:07:26.320
people within the workplace. 
And so what they've

0:07:26.320,0:07:30.000
gone for instead is complete 
repression at times.

0:07:30.000,0:07:34.240
And we've seen that manifest in some disastrous

0:07:34.240,0:07:37.400
decisions. Uh some played out very publicly. For

0:07:37.400,0:07:41.200
example, the Lattouf versus 
ABC case. Um and other

0:07:41.200,0:07:45.440
cases uh where the organization says we would

0:07:45.440,0:07:47.520
just don't want to have any kind of scope for a

0:07:47.520,0:07:50.720
discussion on this and 
instead we'll just suppress

0:07:50.720,0:07:53.760
it. And they fall foul of the law. They end up

0:07:53.760,0:07:56.400
before people like Deputy President Grayson who

0:07:56.400,0:07:58.320
dulls out steaming hot bowls 
of justice to whoever

0:07:58.320,0:08:03.600
comes before her. But and so how do you get past

0:08:03.600,0:08:08.160
that? Um and as a starting point, I think you

0:08:08.160,0:08:10.760
actually get past that. You have to build racial

0:08:10.760,0:08:15.040
literacy, but primarily you need truth telling.

0:08:15.040,0:08:20.560
So I I often lament that 
there is this artificial

0:08:20.560,0:08:22.880
divide between the pursuit 
of racial justice for

0:08:22.880,0:08:26.000
Aboriginal and Torres Stait 
Islanders and the pursuit of

0:08:26.000,0:08:27.920
racial justice for other communities affected

0:08:27.920,0:08:31.160
by racism and other people of color who are not

0:08:31.160,0:08:35.120
Indigenous. And I've I think that actually it's

0:08:35.120,0:08:38.000
just about positionality. 
So there is a difference

0:08:38.000,0:08:40.800
between the racism experienced by both groups.

0:08:40.800,0:08:44.640
So the racism that someone like me might

0:08:44.640,0:08:46.480
experience is a denial of equity, dignity,

0:08:46.480,0:08:50.720
and respect. The racism 
that Karen and Nareen have

0:08:50.720,0:08:52.640
experienced and their people experience is that

0:08:52.640,0:08:54.880
denial of equity, dignity, and respect. But in

0:08:54.880,0:08:56.640
addition, it is a denial of self-determination

0:08:56.640,0:08:59.760
and sovereignty. And I have benefited from that

0:08:59.760,0:09:01.600
denial of self-determination and sovereignty.

0:09:01.600,0:09:03.320
I've benefited from the taking of their

0:09:03.320,0:09:07.600
ancestors land, which is enabled by racism.

0:09:08.400,0:09:11.560
So that's the positionality. But the thing about

0:09:11.560,0:09:14.240
truthtelling is why is it 
that someone like Nareen

0:09:14.240,0:09:18.200
or Karen or me are not culturally safe? I mean

0:09:18.200,0:09:20.160
that's really more a concept for 
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.

0:09:20.160,0:09:23.320
But why do we feel like we're not represented,

0:09:23.320,0:09:26.400
reflected, are carrying um I love the new term

0:09:26.400,0:09:29.080
additional unpaid workplace demands that it's um

0:09:29.080,0:09:32.320
that's it. I'm using that 
that's going out there.

0:09:32.320,0:09:34.880
um why do we feel like 
we're not represented in a

0:09:34.880,0:09:37.280
system? But because the 
system was not built for

0:09:37.280,0:09:42.040
us, the system was built, many were built during

0:09:42.040,0:09:43.840
colonial times and then 
baked in during the white

0:09:43.840,0:09:47.680
Australia policy. They were 
built to ensure white

0:09:47.680,0:09:49.360
privilege. They were built, why were they built

0:09:49.360,0:09:50.960
that way? Because they're built to cover a lie.

0:09:50.960,0:09:52.960
The lie that no one was here before for 60 to

0:09:52.960,0:09:55.680
80,000 years. Aboriginal and 
Torres Strait Islanders

0:09:55.680,0:09:58.560
have been challenging that lie for 237 years.

0:09:59.120,0:10:01.360
Once they break open the lie, they break

0:10:01.360,0:10:04.400
open the structure, then the structure is

0:10:04.400,0:10:09.080
um more able to reflect everyone. So that's why

0:10:09.080,0:10:11.440
the pursuit of racial justice for 
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders

0:10:11.440,0:10:13.440
is integrally connected to the pursuit of racial

0:10:13.440,0:10:15.440
justice for everyone else which is a very long

0:10:15.440,0:10:17.760
way of answering your 
question I know but um sorry

0:10:17.760,0:10:20.240
but it's my point I'm getting 
to is if you want to

0:10:20.240,0:10:22.600
be inclusive if your 
organisation has lots of people

0:10:22.600,0:10:24.800
here representing their 
organisations if you want

0:10:24.800,0:10:28.800
Your organisation to be inclusive and reflective

0:10:28.800,0:10:33.440
and culturally safe of your broader population

0:10:33.440,0:10:35.760
you need that truth telling to begin with and

0:10:35.760,0:10:38.400
you need to build the racial literacy within

0:10:38.400,0:10:42.560
your organisation and then only when you've done

0:10:42.560,0:10:46.240
that hard work can you deal 
with the complicated

0:10:46.240,0:10:48.960
and difficult conversations 
that we have right now

0:10:48.960,0:10:51.360
rather than what most orgs 
are doing at the moment

0:10:51.360,0:10:55.240
and that's just retreat retreat retreat. Thanks

0:10:55.240,0:11:02.480
Gary. Um, Nareen, I want to uh Well said. Um,

0:11:02.480,0:11:05.760
your research has consistently demonstrated

0:11:05.760,0:11:10.080
that um outcomes whilst shaped by policy and

0:11:10.080,0:11:13.040
in intent are much more around how the systems

0:11:13.040,0:11:16.560
and people operate day-to-day. Um and so again

0:11:16.560,0:11:19.000
this sort of current environment that that we're

0:11:19.000,0:11:21.680
in what when we heard a bit about it then what

0:11:21.680,0:11:25.120
what's now insufficient versus what do we really

0:11:25.120,0:11:28.960
need to focus on to move this forward. Um so I

0:11:28.960,0:11:35.120
often ponder where we'd be if in fact at the

0:11:35.120,0:11:39.760
point of the formation and 
therefore application

0:11:39.760,0:11:43.680
of Giri's act of the Racial Discrimination Act

0:11:45.280,0:11:50.080
it had properly been applied 
in workplaces. So, it

0:11:50.080,0:11:53.160
seems to me that while it's 
not completely fit for

0:11:53.160,0:11:59.040
purpose anymore and we've all been calling for

0:11:59.040,0:12:02.080
an inquiry into workplace racism for about the

0:12:02.080,0:12:05.680
last year, Giri and the 
ACTU, where are you Lara?

0:12:05.680,0:12:09.760
And hello sis and the Centre for Indigenous

0:12:09.760,0:12:13.680
People and Work. In fact, 
we wouldn't need to do

0:12:13.680,0:12:24.480
that if the act was properly implemented. So, 
I don't think there's much understanding on

0:12:24.480,0:12:29.000
the part of your average Australian worker that

0:12:29.000,0:12:32.960
racism, being racist, saying 
racist things, doing

0:12:32.960,0:12:36.960
racist things, is unlawful at work. I just don't

0:12:36.960,0:12:41.600
think that that message has been conveyed. And

0:12:41.600,0:12:45.440
as we know most people are reluctant to make

0:12:45.440,0:12:49.280
complaints and that's because 
they get victimized

0:12:49.280,0:12:53.520
and that's because the complaints system is such

0:12:53.520,0:12:59.920
an utter debacle. Um so I think that in seeking

0:12:59.920,0:13:05.040
which we're trying to do 
and again Vicki Kontellis

0:13:05.040,0:13:08.960
where are you got a good product coming through

0:13:08.960,0:13:13.680
um we are saying that our 
data clearly shows that

0:13:13.680,0:13:19.680
there is a need for an anti-racist approach in

0:13:19.680,0:13:23.800
workplaces. Now, I've been doing this for a long

0:13:23.800,0:13:28.400
time and I've watched EEO practice develop into

0:13:28.400,0:13:32.240
diversity practice. They are different. EEO

0:13:32.240,0:13:35.360
practice is about compliance with the law.

0:13:35.360,0:13:38.880
as we have moved into 
diversity practice which I'm

0:13:38.880,0:13:41.280
certainly not complaining 
about and sold for many

0:13:41.280,0:13:48.120
Years, the requirements of the EEO component

0:13:48.120,0:13:51.680
of what diversity practice has become has been

0:13:51.680,0:13:56.600
lost right so organisations need to implement

0:13:56.600,0:13:59.520
anti-racist strategies um we're happy to work

0:13:59.520,0:14:05.600
with you on that um and they are multiple But at

0:14:05.600,0:14:08.960
the very bottom of it and not just your Act,

0:14:08.960,0:14:13.360
Giri, I think we had the Respect at Work inquiry

0:14:13.360,0:14:16.560
because the requirements of 
the Sex Discrimination

0:14:16.560,0:14:20.160
Act hadn't been applied in workplaces. Um

0:14:20.160,0:14:23.520
I'm sure if you to ask disability activists,

0:14:23.520,0:14:26.880
they would say that the implement that the DDA

0:14:26.880,0:14:29.600
hasn't the Disability Discrimination Act hasn't

0:14:29.600,0:14:33.360
been applied at workplaces. So I think

0:14:33.360,0:14:36.080
the failure on the part of whatever you want

0:14:36.080,0:14:39.760
to call it and they all get 
very defensive but the

0:14:39.760,0:14:42.880
people industry or the people 
and culture industry

0:14:42.880,0:14:45.680
whatever you want to call 
it just hasn't happened

0:14:45.680,0:14:50.720
for 50 years and so we need to examine that

0:14:50.720,0:14:55.880
um recommit to the human rights-based

0:14:55.880,0:14:59.520
framework of EEO policy and procedure

0:14:59.520,0:15:01.920
um deepen the understanding of that

0:15:01.920,0:15:06.320
in workplaces by communicating 
it and applying it.

0:15:07.840,0:15:11.360
Thank you, Naren.

0:15:11.360,0:15:14.000
And as an HR practitioner, you're right.

0:15:18.080,0:15:19.840
I was just going to say so the next

0:15:19.840,0:15:22.960
bit of that which is it's the action piece,

0:15:22.960,0:15:25.040
right? So it's about the let's talk

0:15:25.040,0:15:27.200
about this stuff, let's identify it,

0:15:27.200,0:15:30.160
um let's hear that experience of work,

0:15:30.160,0:15:31.920
but unless we do something with it,

0:15:31.920,0:15:35.520
and same with policy and with law, unless we do

0:15:35.520,0:15:39.280
something which includes empowering or teaching

0:15:39.280,0:15:42.720
and training managers in particular, like at

0:15:42.720,0:15:45.760
that point to be testing those structures,

0:15:45.760,0:15:48.560
to be pushing those systems, again, we're not

0:15:48.560,0:15:51.200
going to see that change. it just becomes a

0:15:51.200,0:15:54.160
checklist of something to do but no real action

0:15:54.160,0:15:57.680
and outcome that causes change. I think that's

0:15:57.680,0:15:59.920
a it's a really good point 
and this is a question

0:15:59.920,0:16:01.680
I want to throw to all of 
you, actually because you

0:16:01.680,0:16:05.360
you have the systems you have the the

0:16:05.360,0:16:08.240
Acts the legal responsibilities which in big

0:16:08.240,0:16:10.360
corporations can be driven by legal teams or

0:16:10.360,0:16:13.120
HR teams but not every organisation has that.

0:16:13.120,0:16:15.360
we talk about more entrepreneurial or small to

0:16:15.360,0:16:18.560
medium type smart type businesses which then I

0:16:18.560,0:16:21.440
think throws more uh on the ownership on

0:16:21.440,0:16:24.720
the leader and the leadership in and of itself

0:16:24.720,0:16:26.880
um and when we have these situations where there

0:16:26.880,0:16:30.080
is a retreat maybe I don't 
know what to do I have

0:16:30.080,0:16:32.240
racism coming to me as a leader what do how do

0:16:32.240,0:16:35.280
I respond what's your advice for leaders how

0:16:35.280,0:16:38.480
do they show up and need to act quickly to

0:16:38.480,0:16:40.160
respond and make people feel heard and included

0:16:43.120,0:16:48.480
Um, well, I think part of the culture of this

0:16:48.480,0:16:52.640
place called Australia is that when someone

0:16:52.640,0:16:57.360
says you're being racist, people go apoplectic

0:16:57.360,0:17:04.320
in terms of defence and um, you know, like just

0:17:04.320,0:17:07.720
get really inappropriately worked up. So, I

0:17:07.720,0:17:12.480
can vouch for that. Yeah. Right. And you know,

0:17:12.480,0:17:16.960
I just think we need to shift that conversation

0:17:16.960,0:17:20.320
like you're not being told you're the world you

0:17:20.320,0:17:25.040
you know most horrible person. Um what needs to

0:17:25.040,0:17:28.880
develop I think is a culture of listening and

0:17:28.880,0:17:34.080
responding appropriately. 
And you know what? Even

0:17:34.080,0:17:38.080
you might be the most lovely 
person in the world,

0:17:38.080,0:17:42.000
but you will never have an 
Indigenous standpoint.

0:17:42.000,0:17:44.560
You will never have Giri's standpoint. I will

0:17:44.560,0:17:50.080
never have Giri's standpoint. Um, and what I

0:17:50.080,0:17:53.760
think so crucial is that we need to be having

0:17:53.760,0:17:57.880
these conversations. Um, what leaders can do is

0:17:57.880,0:18:00.960
go, "Yep, okay, I'm going 
to listen to that. I'm

0:18:00.960,0:18:03.920
not going to get defensive. 
I'm not going to deny

0:18:03.920,0:18:07.120
it happen. I'm not going 
to say you're imagining

0:18:07.120,0:18:11.760
things." I'm not going to um retreat into either

0:18:11.760,0:18:16.880
which I've seen redeemed 
uh redeemed um utilised

0:18:16.880,0:18:20.000
in relation to myself recently and it hasn't

0:18:20.000,0:18:22.320
happened for a long time. But the angry black

0:18:22.320,0:18:27.520
woman um trope and um the scary big black man

0:18:27.520,0:18:31.600
trope I've both seen used sadly by a diversity

0:18:31.600,0:18:36.720
organisation. And I think we need to have those

0:18:36.720,0:18:41.680
conversations and leaders 
I think it needs to go

0:18:41.680,0:18:45.520
in the brain permeates the consciousness and of

0:18:45.520,0:18:48.640
the zeitgeist and this 
again goes to the lack of

0:18:48.640,0:18:51.440
proper application of the various acts that it's

0:18:51.440,0:18:56.720
part of your job it's not 
an extra it's not oh do

0:18:56.720,0:19:00.960
I have to deal with this 
it's your responsibility

0:19:00.960,0:19:05.360
to apply it at the workplace 
place. Can I just um

0:19:05.360,0:19:07.680
add to the Nareen's response? Unless you want to

0:19:07.680,0:19:14.640
go first. The I think that part of the issue is

0:19:14.640,0:19:19.440
uh focus on individual actions rather than

0:19:19.440,0:19:23.200
systems. So it's when you think about racism

0:19:23.200,0:19:25.920
as just being interpersonal, it's really easy

0:19:25.920,0:19:27.920
to avoid responsibility. Here you go. Well,

0:19:27.920,0:19:29.720
I'm not saying something racist to someone else

0:19:29.720,0:19:31.200
and I haven't seen someone say something racist

0:19:31.200,0:19:32.560
to someone else. So, we've got a policy

0:19:32.560,0:19:34.560
that says you can't say something racist

0:19:34.560,0:19:37.480
to someone else. Therefore, there's not a

0:19:37.480,0:19:40.080
problem. When you think of it as systemic,

0:19:40.080,0:19:44.520
when you think of it as from the point of do

0:19:44.520,0:19:46.640
qualifications get recognised, do Indigenous

0:19:46.640,0:19:49.600
knowledge systems are they actually valued or

0:19:49.600,0:19:51.440
or Aboriginal ways of 
knowing, being, and doing,

0:19:51.440,0:19:55.440
are they truly valued? to 
does the additional work

0:19:55.440,0:19:59.040
get recompensed? Um, do 
you have actual policies

0:19:59.040,0:20:02.640
that name racism rather 
than euphemistic ones that

0:20:02.640,0:20:06.880
talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion? Do

0:20:06.880,0:20:10.080
you look at what is the seen as the appropriate

0:20:10.080,0:20:12.240
cultural fit for leadership 
and does that exclude

0:20:12.240,0:20:15.560
Aboriginal and tourist rate islanders? All of

0:20:15.560,0:20:18.880
those are systems-based issues. Leaders change

0:20:18.880,0:20:22.240
systems. So, they have a 
critical role. you that's

0:20:22.240,0:20:25.520
where the individual 
responsibility comes but you

0:20:25.520,0:20:27.640
don't have to take it personal just like what

0:20:27.640,0:20:29.520
Narin just said you can say as a leader okay I

0:20:29.520,0:20:31.520
recognise that I have the 
power to change a system

0:20:31.520,0:20:34.800
to make it better and that's 
what I'm going to do

0:20:34.800,0:20:39.240
and the beauty of making systems institutions

0:20:39.240,0:20:42.480
organisations more transparent responsive and

0:20:42.480,0:20:46.400
accountable is that that helps everyone so it's

0:20:46.400,0:20:48.560
not just it's going to help 
Aboriginal and Torres Strait

0:20:48.560,0:20:50.360
Islanders but it's going 
to help women it's going

0:20:50.360,0:20:51.920
to help people that are disabled. It's going to

0:20:51.920,0:20:53.720
help people that are gender fluid. It's going

0:20:53.720,0:20:56.960
to help older workers 
because you are building a

0:20:56.960,0:20:59.920
system that is responsive 
to everyone. So, that's

0:20:59.920,0:21:03.280
the thing. It's not a 
anti-racism is not a zero-

0:21:03.280,0:21:05.920
sum game. Nobody loses. Actually, everybody can

0:21:05.920,0:21:09.280
benefit from a system and institution that is

0:21:09.280,0:21:11.920
uh responsive and transparent and accountable to

0:21:11.920,0:21:14.960
everyone. Organisations have 
so much to benefit if

0:21:14.960,0:21:17.520
they're prepared to lead and the leaders within

0:21:17.520,0:21:21.040
them lead in that way. And can I also just add

0:21:21.040,0:21:24.960
in Giri makes a really important point as usual.

0:21:24.960,0:21:28.880
Um and that is that what's 
good for us for First

0:21:28.880,0:21:34.200
Nations people is good for everybody. And um

0:21:34.200,0:21:40.000
yeah, clap. Go on then. Um and and I've always

0:21:40.000,0:21:44.000
seen First Nations is the Australian for one of

0:21:44.000,0:21:49.200
a better term diversity 
fundamental. It cannot be

0:21:49.200,0:21:52.880
any more fundamental than that. So if we move to

0:21:52.880,0:21:55.840
getting that right, um I 
honestly believe it will

0:21:55.840,0:21:58.720
be right for everyone. Yeah. And just to add to

0:21:58.720,0:22:01.680
that, you know, again, we are already a diverse

0:22:01.680,0:22:05.840
community as Australians. How do we be inclusive

0:22:05.840,0:22:10.160
and how do we create 
inclusive workplaces? So it

0:22:10.160,0:22:12.880
is how do you change the systems that allow

0:22:12.880,0:22:15.760
for that that opens up these conversations

0:22:15.760,0:22:19.440
that creates safety so that you're not playing

0:22:19.440,0:22:23.520
a defensive game but you have clearly defined

0:22:23.520,0:22:27.040
processes and systems and 
ways of doing which then

0:22:27.040,0:22:30.320
opens up people feeling 
comfortable feeling able

0:22:30.320,0:22:34.080
um to raise issues being knowing that there is

0:22:34.080,0:22:36.880
a consequence when issues get raised I think

0:22:36.880,0:22:39.760
that's one of those kind 
of key points around, you

0:22:39.760,0:22:42.640
know, that that quote around 
that person that I've

0:22:42.640,0:22:45.840
reported has been promoted five times. There is

0:22:45.840,0:22:47.840
no consequence. My nephew says it to me all the

0:22:47.840,0:22:50.000
time. It's like, why do you love coming to Anie

0:22:50.000,0:22:52.000
Kaz's place? Well, cause 
there are consequences with

0:22:52.000,0:22:54.360
her. He knows what the rules are. He knows what

0:22:54.360,0:22:57.440
the consequence is. But 
that creates safety. That

0:22:57.440,0:23:00.400
creates that's a place I want to work in because

0:23:00.400,0:23:03.040
I know they do the things 
they say they're going

0:23:03.040,0:23:07.760
to do. Thank you. Uh now I'm want to give some

0:23:07.760,0:23:10.000
opportunity to go to the 
floor for some questions.

0:23:10.000,0:23:12.720
Um whilst I do that and 
you're thinking and we do

0:23:12.720,0:23:15.040
expect questions don't 
leave us hanging up here.

0:23:15.040,0:23:19.360
Um I just could continue on that theme. Why why

0:23:19.360,0:23:21.440
aren't organisations stepping into this do you

0:23:21.440,0:23:26.080
think? What is driving the retreat? Um I'm

0:23:26.080,0:23:28.480
happy to take this first 
or you Yeah, I'll you go

0:23:28.480,0:23:31.600
because you've got more of 
an overview especially.

0:23:31.600,0:23:37.280
Yeah. I so I look I think that they were burnt

0:23:37.280,0:23:41.360
in by the referendum in part. So I think that

0:23:41.360,0:23:43.440
organisations thought this 
will be easy. We won't

0:23:43.440,0:23:46.080
have to do the hard work of 
truth telling. We won't

0:23:46.080,0:23:48.080
have to do the hard work of ensuring cultural

0:23:48.080,0:23:51.480
safety. We'll just come 
out, splash a bit of money

0:23:51.480,0:23:53.760
and say yes and tell employees 
that we're going to

0:23:53.760,0:23:57.440
say that we we think it's good to vote yes. And

0:23:57.440,0:24:02.000
it all kind of turns to you know what. um as we

0:24:02.000,0:24:05.200
saw because you need to do the hard work first

0:24:05.200,0:24:07.360
and then they've gone now this is just too hard

0:24:07.360,0:24:12.560
and the best way to maintain brand um I suppose

0:24:12.560,0:24:15.520
maintain the brand and to avoid um tarnishing

0:24:15.520,0:24:18.320
the brand is to just avoid conflict altogether

0:24:18.320,0:24:21.680
and to avoid having the difficult conversation

0:24:21.680,0:24:26.360
so watch hindsight is a wonderful thing of

0:24:26.360,0:24:28.000
course right and I appreciate that and I'm

0:24:28.000,0:24:30.640
I'm not an Aboriginal person 
so I didn't I didn't

0:24:30.640,0:24:33.520
go through the unbearable almost trauma I think

0:24:33.520,0:24:35.760
that the referendum inflicted on many Aboriginal

0:24:35.760,0:24:38.320
and Torres Strait Islanders 
in this country. So I'm

0:24:38.320,0:24:39.840
I'm not going to speak from their experience

0:24:39.840,0:24:43.520
obviously but what I think is that

0:24:43.520,0:24:46.320
if you as an organisation, 
want to be committed to

0:24:46.320,0:24:49.680
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 
then I come back to what I said earlier

0:24:49.680,0:24:53.600
do the hard work initially 
in terms of approach it

0:24:53.600,0:24:58.320
from a perspective of of 
reflection and analysis.

0:24:58.320,0:25:00.560
Some of these organisations that would have gone

0:25:00.560,0:25:04.080
out and said vote yes would 
have been established

0:25:04.080,0:25:06.880
and have had policies that specifically excluded

0:25:06.880,0:25:09.200
Aboriginal and Torres Strait 
Islanders from working for them

0:25:09.200,0:25:12.000
or would have been part of 
the many that underpaid

0:25:12.000,0:25:14.880
Aboriginal and Torres Strait 
and probably refused to

0:25:14.880,0:25:17.920
participate in compensation 
schemes and may never

0:25:17.920,0:25:20.720
have apologised for that. 
So the sheer hypocrisy

0:25:20.720,0:25:25.347
of then going vote yes 
we're good people complete

0:25:25.347,0:25:27.520
[  __  ] right? You've got 
to actually acknowledge

0:25:27.520,0:25:31.760
your past and then and then 
come otherwise you're

0:25:31.760,0:25:33.520
not you know to use an 
expression inequity you're

0:25:33.520,0:25:36.480
not coming with clean hands. So I I think that's

0:25:36.480,0:25:40.800
the the journey that needs to be um taken. I

0:25:40.800,0:25:44.960
would also say for those organisations that have

0:25:44.960,0:25:49.120
retreated part of it I think is it exposed the

0:25:49.120,0:25:54.240
things that they hadn't 
done. Um, and our approach

0:25:54.240,0:25:58.320
uh with our app partners is perhaps this is

0:25:58.320,0:26:00.360
something we've been saying for a long time with

0:26:00.360,0:26:03.280
you and now it's been 
exposed. So, how do we work

0:26:03.280,0:26:07.440
with you to actually build up those foundations?

0:26:07.440,0:26:10.960
Some of this stuff takes a 
while to unpack as well

0:26:10.960,0:26:13.680
when you're talking large um organisations.

0:26:13.680,0:26:15.120
And this is not to let people off the hook,

0:26:15.120,0:26:18.560
but there's a reality of time and people and

0:26:18.560,0:26:22.160
behaviour change. But I 
think those organisations

0:26:22.160,0:26:26.160
that really lent in that 
really did the hard work

0:26:26.160,0:26:30.800
and supported their people. Um I I saw actually

0:26:30.800,0:26:33.600
people doubling down in 
that post-referendum world

0:26:33.600,0:26:36.160
and really sort of saying 
okay this is saying that

0:26:36.160,0:26:39.680
Karen that's exposed actually the depth of what

0:26:39.680,0:26:41.440
we actually are facing like we knew that there

0:26:41.440,0:26:43.920
was something we had to deal with but we didn't

0:26:43.920,0:26:47.680
realize it was this big. So 
that's the opportunity

0:26:47.680,0:26:50.560
that we're looking at. How do we work with those

0:26:50.560,0:26:53.760
organisations utilising data like this? Um,

0:26:53.760,0:26:56.400
utilising the upcoming inquiries, all of these

0:26:56.400,0:26:59.840
things that expose and put this into a bigger

0:26:59.840,0:27:03.200
dialogue and conversation that we can actually

0:27:03.200,0:27:05.840
identify issues but also identify opportunities

0:27:05.840,0:27:10.080
for interventions and change. I think both Karen

0:27:10.080,0:27:13.440
and Giri are absolutely 
right. We haven't noticed a

0:27:13.440,0:27:18.320
fall-off. keep hearing this 
narrative that because

0:27:18.320,0:27:21.840
of Trump there's less 
commitment to and the people

0:27:21.840,0:27:27.600
who say say DEI we don't have DEI in Australia

0:27:27.600,0:27:31.280
um I I think um we haven't noticed that at

0:27:31.280,0:27:36.960
all we've in fact we're inundated um with people

0:27:36.960,0:27:41.200
looking for good approach 
new approaches like NAB

0:27:41.200,0:27:44.640
um and I think that there's no redeeming

0:27:44.640,0:27:48.400
feature of the referendum period except I

0:27:48.400,0:27:52.480
think it was revolutionary 
to non-Indigenous including

0:27:52.480,0:27:57.600
people of colour, what is like it is like to be

0:27:57.600,0:28:02.120
black in this place. I 
think it it opened up that

0:28:02.120,0:28:04.240
discussion. That's not to say I think there was

0:28:04.240,0:28:07.600
anything else great about it, but I think there

0:28:07.600,0:28:11.120
are organisations looking at anti-racism. And I

0:28:11.120,0:28:16.720
think as the young mob and people of colour come

0:28:16.720,0:28:19.840
through, not into leadership positions because

0:28:19.840,0:28:23.040
they're not allowed access to them. But as they

0:28:23.040,0:28:27.120
come through to middle management, for example,

0:28:27.120,0:28:31.680
there's an imperative, right? So, I think that

0:28:31.680,0:28:35.600
there's a deepening 
understanding that what I call

0:28:35.600,0:28:39.320
um the diverse mainstream, which I think is the

0:28:39.320,0:28:41.840
actual makeup of the 
Australian community, if you

0:28:41.840,0:28:45.520
put us all together, we in 
fact hold the majority.

0:28:45.520,0:28:49.840
Um I think there's a deepening 
understanding. So,

0:28:49.840,0:28:55.520
um I think the next thing is anti-racism. Um, I

0:28:55.520,0:28:59.040
think the next thing is a deeper understanding

0:28:59.040,0:29:02.000
of self-determination, particularly

0:29:02.000,0:29:04.480
for people with disability. I mean,

0:29:04.480,0:29:07.120
people talk about the Indigenous industry.

0:29:07.120,0:29:13.200
Oh my god. Um, the willingness of a lack

0:29:13.200,0:29:16.000
of understanding and acceptance and endorsement

0:29:16.000,0:29:18.480
that people with disability 
can manage their own

0:29:18.480,0:29:23.040
affairs just does my head. um in the same way

0:29:23.040,0:29:27.520
that it always has around our people. Um so I

0:29:27.520,0:29:31.760
think that they're the next things. Anti-racism,

0:29:31.760,0:29:36.080
applying the act um obviously 
the inquiry for us

0:29:36.080,0:29:43.320
is another opportunity, but also um a deepening

0:29:43.320,0:29:46.320
understanding of the self-determinationist

0:29:46.320,0:29:52.000
imperative. Thank you. here. Right. Uh now, if

0:29:52.000,0:29:54.080
you put your hand up uh 
for those new questions,

0:29:54.080,0:29:55.960
we'll send a microphone around to you. I

0:29:55.960,0:30:12.880
think that'll be Tarni at the back there.

0:30:12.880,0:30:15.200
Um hi, thank you so much for this wonderful

0:30:15.200,0:30:17.920
event. It's been so insightful and excellent

0:30:17.920,0:30:20.800
to hear all the data and the amazing research

0:30:20.800,0:30:24.000
that that has happened over the past 5 years.

0:30:24.000,0:30:27.680
I really resonated with the 
comments Giri you made

0:30:27.680,0:30:31.440
about organisations needing 
to enable truth-telling

0:30:31.440,0:30:34.480
and I think it needs to be done really safely.

0:30:34.480,0:30:36.800
But when I think about one of their insights,

0:30:36.800,0:30:38.920
the excellent framing of you know the

0:30:38.920,0:30:42.160
unpaid cultural demand that I think will

0:30:42.160,0:30:45.920
be exacerbated if we do create an environment

0:30:45.920,0:30:48.720
of truth telling. So I was just wondering what

0:30:48.720,0:30:51.360
your thoughts widely to the whole panel of how

0:30:51.360,0:30:54.960
do you uh balance those tensions of wanting

0:30:54.960,0:31:00.080
to support truth telling but also not further

0:31:00.080,0:31:06.480
grow the burden of unpaid um cultural demand.

0:31:06.480,0:31:09.840
Um I'll go first if you want. Yeah. I mean

0:31:09.840,0:31:11.920
what you're asking it's a 
great question because

0:31:11.920,0:31:14.080
I think it's actually a question that you could

0:31:14.080,0:31:17.120
ask about many initiatives that would occur in

0:31:17.120,0:31:22.040
workplaces. Any kind of meaningful change must

0:31:22.040,0:31:24.000
involve an Aboriginal and 
Torres Strait Islander rather

0:31:24.000,0:31:27.200
than as in they have to be able to lead it or

0:31:27.200,0:31:29.040
be part of the leadership of it rather than

0:31:29.040,0:31:31.840
being told what's going to happen. But at

0:31:31.840,0:31:33.840
the same time that's got to happen. There's

0:31:33.840,0:31:36.960
two things that need to come with that. One is

0:31:36.960,0:31:39.920
cultural safety for them in what could be quite

0:31:39.920,0:31:42.600
traumatic and difficult work and the second

0:31:42.600,0:31:46.560
is money. They have to be compensated for it.

0:31:47.120,0:31:53.040
Um so if you don't guarantee those two things

0:31:53.040,0:31:55.840
then it's just further exploitation for the and

0:31:55.840,0:31:58.480
the the worst is when it's exploitation for the

0:31:58.480,0:32:02.480
benefit of the employer's 
brand and they present

0:32:02.480,0:32:05.320
a brand saying look how 
great we are while having

0:32:05.320,0:32:07.840
exploited black fellas to get to that point. So

0:32:07.840,0:32:09.760
that doesn't work either right. So it's got

0:32:09.760,0:32:12.320
to be um you've got to have those two things

0:32:12.320,0:32:17.200
I think happening and so that requires um I mean

0:32:17.200,0:32:21.440
for example Narin is working 
with the uh well the

0:32:21.440,0:32:25.720
the center is working with 
the AU on um bargaining

0:32:25.720,0:32:29.920
clauses uh that would be 
specific to recognizing

0:32:29.920,0:32:33.360
there you go some of the AE people over there um

0:32:33.360,0:32:35.600
recognizing specific 
compensation I think that's a

0:32:35.600,0:32:38.000
great that's why I think 
unions and Lara knows and

0:32:38.000,0:32:39.440
unions have a really 
important role to play here

0:32:39.440,0:32:41.520
and employers of course because I think we do we

0:32:41.520,0:32:45.120
should be enshrining um 
compensation for this kind

0:32:45.120,0:32:48.800
of work within EBAS uh amongst many other things

0:32:48.800,0:33:04.160
but yeah that's the two basic features I think

0:33:04.160,0:33:06.680
okay we got any questions from the

0:33:06.680,0:33:14.080
room we get a microphone in it.

0:33:14.080,0:33:18.800
Hello. Hello. My name is 
Scott Avery. My workplace

0:33:18.800,0:33:21.920
is the higher education. 
Um I won't mention which

0:33:21.920,0:33:24.880
one because I'm not into finger-pointing, but um

0:33:24.880,0:33:27.440
I'm here for two reasons. The first reason I'm

0:33:27.440,0:33:33.080
a black fellow and um what you spoke of uh in

0:33:33.080,0:33:37.520
racism is a continuous experience. Um and in

0:33:37.520,0:33:41.600
that respect my you are my voice. The second is

0:33:41.600,0:33:44.080
I'm a deaf person and 
connected to the disability

0:33:44.080,0:33:45.920
community. I had a different 
question in mind till

0:33:45.920,0:33:49.200
you spoke about it because 
it's very rare to hear

0:33:49.200,0:33:51.760
disability acknowledged. 
So there's a differentism

0:33:51.760,0:33:55.520
that we encounter. It's ableism and the

0:33:55.520,0:33:58.480
experience is very different 
and presents itself.

0:33:58.480,0:34:02.800
So racism very much a 
conflict um tension there.

0:34:02.800,0:34:05.840
Ableism, you're invisible. Um, I actually have a

0:34:05.840,0:34:07.920
phrase that if you want to draw an angry crowd,

0:34:07.920,0:34:10.960
start a discussion about racism. If you want to

0:34:10.960,0:34:15.040
disband it, start a discussion 
about ableism. So,

0:34:15.040,0:34:17.720
I'm in awe of what you've been able to do. Even

0:34:17.720,0:34:20.080
though you've raised some 
difficult conversations,

0:34:20.080,0:34:24.200
you do have that platform. Um, I sense I'm

0:34:24.200,0:34:28.480
about 15 years behind where you are in terms

0:34:28.480,0:34:31.120
of raising visibility of disability. That's

0:34:31.120,0:34:34.640
that's just my practical. So in that respect,

0:34:34.640,0:34:38.760
you are my teacher as well. So could you if you

0:34:38.760,0:34:42.080
have one piece of advice 
you could give to me to

0:34:42.080,0:34:46.480
get from an issue of of people who've been uh

0:34:46.480,0:34:48.720
discriminated against and marginalised and made

0:34:48.720,0:34:52.480
invisible in the workplace to lift this so I can

0:34:52.480,0:34:55.120
take it back to my community 
going we got to keep

0:34:55.120,0:34:59.680
going. So one piece of advice from you to me. I

0:34:59.680,0:35:02.080
I I'll give you some advice 
that's not my advice,

0:35:02.080,0:35:04.360
Scott. And I should just say I want to thank

0:35:04.360,0:35:07.280
Scott because he was part of a group that

0:35:07.280,0:35:10.680
uh wrote a fantastic report on racism and

0:35:10.680,0:35:12.560
health for the Australian Human Rights

0:35:12.560,0:35:14.720
Commission. Thank you very much for your

0:35:14.720,0:35:20.640
work, Scott, for you and your team on that.

0:35:20.640,0:35:22.720
It really is an excellent report and worth

0:35:22.720,0:35:25.280
reading. Scott, um I'm not going to give

0:35:25.280,0:35:27.200
you the advice from me. I'm going to give you

0:35:27.200,0:35:29.760
some advice that Rosemary 
Kayess, the Disability

0:35:29.760,0:35:33.600
Discrimination Commissioner, gave to me in a

0:35:33.600,0:35:35.520
general sense in terms of what she's trying to

0:35:35.520,0:35:38.560
do. So, those of you that don't know, Rosemary

0:35:38.560,0:35:40.960
Kayess is Australia's Disability Discrimination

0:35:40.960,0:35:42.960
Commissioner. She’s an incredible, incredible

0:35:42.960,0:35:47.760
woman. Um, and she said to me, "What if I Well,

0:35:47.760,0:35:49.920
my question to Rosemary, 
at the end of your term,

0:35:49.920,0:35:52.720
what is what would you want as a legacy? It's

0:35:52.720,0:35:56.240
a big question. She said I look she's pretty um

0:35:56.240,0:35:59.600
direct. She said mate I 
won't use the expletives

0:35:59.600,0:36:03.520
legacy. She said if I can at least leave with

0:36:03.520,0:36:06.960
one thing and that is people 
stop thinking about

0:36:06.960,0:36:09.840
disability as being the 
different but rather than

0:36:09.840,0:36:12.240
thinking about well we all have various aspects

0:36:12.240,0:36:17.040
to us that differentiate us and we shouldn't

0:36:17.040,0:36:20.800
be segregated then we can be more included. So

0:36:20.800,0:36:23.400
rather than having separate schools and in she

0:36:23.400,0:36:25.520
even extended it out in the NDIS scheme saying

0:36:25.520,0:36:27.920
rather than having a completely separate scheme

0:36:27.920,0:36:30.240
instead if you build systems and institutions

0:36:30.240,0:36:32.960
and it's the same thing I said earlier from the

0:36:32.960,0:36:35.280
very beginning in a manner that recognises that

0:36:35.280,0:36:37.640
people are all different and have many different

0:36:37.640,0:36:40.880
aspects to them and that 
doesn't make them worse

0:36:40.880,0:36:43.160
that just means that they're different and that

0:36:43.160,0:36:44.960
difference is to be celebrated and part of who

0:36:44.960,0:36:49.480
we are as a society then um we may have better

0:36:49.480,0:36:52.240
systems institutions for 
people who are, you know,

0:36:52.240,0:36:55.840
seen as disabled. But so 
that's I suppose the one

0:36:55.840,0:36:59.680
thing that I would convey 
to you from Rosemary. I

0:36:59.680,0:37:02.800
don't know that I'm telling 
you nothing, brother.

0:37:02.800,0:37:05.200
Um especially the one that I was going to say,

0:37:05.200,0:37:10.200
which was don't back down. 
You never do. Um I and

0:37:10.200,0:37:14.720
I but I really believe from my own observation

0:37:14.720,0:37:20.560
I even we were invited to meet with a just

0:37:20.560,0:37:26.160
recently funded um millions of dollars peak for

0:37:26.160,0:37:29.800
disability employment right 
and you know I jack up

0:37:29.800,0:37:32.800
at the term indigenous 
employment and I jack up at

0:37:32.800,0:37:36.880
disability employment as 
well it's such a deficit

0:37:36.880,0:37:41.520
way of approaching employment for everyone. Um,

0:37:41.520,0:37:45.120
and you know, Jane and I are in this meeting and

0:37:45.120,0:37:48.560
I didn't ask directly because I never do, but I

0:37:48.560,0:37:51.840
said to someone later, "This woman's the CEO.

0:37:51.840,0:37:56.080
Um, does she identify as having a disability?"

0:37:56.080,0:38:00.080
And the person and to Christina Ryan, so

0:38:00.080,0:38:02.480
to a disability esteemed disability activist,

0:38:02.480,0:38:08.320
and she said, "No, not at all. It does my

0:38:08.320,0:38:11.440
head. There is still people who believe

0:38:11.440,0:38:13.920
they can speak for people with disability.

0:38:13.920,0:38:17.280
Not to say that they haven't 
left our milieu. Um

0:38:17.280,0:38:20.480
there's still plenty in our milieu, but I

0:38:20.480,0:38:27.280
I think your job is to piss them off. Scott,

0:38:27.280,0:38:32.160
yeah, you really should. 
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're

0:38:32.160,0:38:34.720
now seeing the Naz and Scotty show which can be

0:38:34.720,0:38:39.600
quite entertaining but it 
I just I see it all over

0:38:39.600,0:38:44.480
LinkedIn all over and it just gobsmacking

0:38:44.480,0:38:49.280
however I know how hard it has been for us right

0:38:49.280,0:38:52.960
and again Darren Godwell I 
understand it that it's

0:38:52.960,0:38:58.320
only Indigenous people on 
the IBA board now almost

0:38:58.320,0:39:04.240
but it's 2026 Six. On what 
planet do we need? Any

0:39:04.240,0:39:08.400
of us need the help? Go 
and help your own people.

0:39:08.400,0:39:15.760
For God's sake, God knows they could use it.

0:39:15.760,0:39:17.120
I would just say keep doing what

0:39:17.120,0:39:19.520
you're doing, Scotty. You are amazing.

0:39:20.080,0:39:25.440
um keep reframing, challenging, um pushing back,

0:39:25.440,0:39:28.240
uh and knowing that you've got a whole bunch of

0:39:28.240,0:39:31.760
allies and continuing to 
find and work with those

0:39:31.760,0:39:34.880
allies, um no matter what 
the ism is. And we all

0:39:34.880,0:39:37.720
have the intersectionality of we're not just one

0:39:37.720,0:39:40.160
single thing. We're all dealing with it. And it

0:39:40.160,0:39:42.320
goes back to that point around inclusion. It's

0:39:42.320,0:39:45.360
about how do you reframe and reset the systems

0:39:45.360,0:39:48.560
to make them truly inclusive no matter what the

0:39:48.560,0:39:50.880
thing that you're grappling with in that day,

0:39:50.880,0:39:53.480
in that moment, in that workplace that it

0:39:53.480,0:39:55.760
is open and it's about getting the best out

0:39:55.760,0:40:00.400
of people no matter what. Great response and

0:40:00.400,0:40:02.320
great question. Thank you very much. Right,

0:40:02.320,0:40:06.160
I've been told we got time for one more

0:40:06.160,0:40:10.800
over here. Tie, can we get a and a booth?

0:40:12.240,0:40:19.520
the wonderful Anna Booth expectations. No

0:40:19.520,0:40:22.080
pressure. Thanks so much, Anna Booth. Fair work

0:40:22.080,0:40:24.960
Ombudsman. Um, as a relatively new public

0:40:24.960,0:40:28.080
servant, only two and a half years in, um,

0:40:28.080,0:40:32.240
uh, I am quite overwhelmed, 
um, by the frameworks

0:40:32.240,0:40:36.000
and intentions that are 
expressed both, you know,

0:40:36.000,0:40:38.160
within my own organisation as well as across

0:40:38.160,0:40:41.680
the Australian public service. I'm wondering

0:40:41.680,0:40:44.560
whether the panel believes that the experience

0:40:44.560,0:40:47.440
and whether there's any evidence um in um Gari

0:40:47.440,0:40:50.240
Yala in regards to this whether the experience

0:40:50.240,0:40:53.200
um of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in

0:40:53.200,0:40:56.200
the public sector as public sector employees is

0:40:56.200,0:41:03.280
superior to the private sector and if it isn't

0:41:03.280,0:41:06.480
uh look there's a couple of reports Anna that

0:41:06.480,0:41:09.360
I'd read Debbie Bargallie can me remember what

0:41:09.360,0:41:14.720
her one was called Olivia or Jane - unmasking

0:41:14.720,0:41:20.080
the public service. So her PhD yeah thesis so

0:41:20.080,0:41:25.040
yeah so I email me and I can and it is

0:41:25.040,0:41:28.160
brilliant but I've known this for many

0:41:28.160,0:41:31.840
many years I was asked to do um a benchmarking

0:41:31.840,0:41:36.640
exercise I think when I was still a consultant

0:41:36.640,0:41:38.640
um Joshy can you remember this we did

0:41:38.640,0:41:43.840
that um benchmarking exercise as to where

0:41:43.840,0:41:48.440
um mob might be placed in both the APS and the

0:41:48.440,0:41:50.480
various state public sectors and we couldn't

0:41:50.480,0:41:54.320
get data right I think you can from the feds

0:41:54.320,0:41:57.840
now this is probably about 5 years ago but

0:41:57.840,0:41:59.920
you just couldn't get data from either the

0:41:59.920,0:42:01.760
feds or the state public service because I

0:42:01.760,0:42:04.400
think they were too shame to provide us with

0:42:04.400,0:42:09.840
the data so I think um things are improving

0:42:09.840,0:42:15.680
Carrin, anyone, mob here, probably not

0:42:15.680,0:42:37.280
to the extent that I would like to see 49.

0:42:37.280,0:42:39.840
So yeah, it's not as far as I would see.

0:42:39.840,0:42:41.840
you have all the policies and procedures

0:42:41.840,0:42:45.040
under the sun to work to but it comes down

0:42:45.040,0:42:48.320
to the warm body who makes the decision.

0:42:48.320,0:42:57.360
If that warm body has underlying violence

0:42:57.360,0:42:58.800
so probably not everyone heard

0:42:58.800,0:43:04.720
that but in a nutshell car said no.

0:43:04.720,0:43:09.440
um either of you two. We don't see a huge

0:43:09.440,0:43:11.520
variation between those in the public sector

0:43:11.520,0:43:13.880
versus those in the private sector in any of our

0:43:13.880,0:43:16.240
data. That raises a real question, doesn't it,

0:43:16.240,0:43:19.280
about the investment and we have to do take a

0:43:19.280,0:43:23.280
really good look at doing 
things differently. And

0:43:23.280,0:43:25.440
I would say it comes back 
again to those systems.

0:43:25.440,0:43:27.840
If the systems are continuing 
to be these colonial

0:43:27.840,0:43:33.400
systems that um that platform and preface uh

0:43:33.400,0:43:36.880
non-indigenous people uh and often people who

0:43:36.880,0:43:41.200
are white male and they're still the decision

0:43:41.200,0:43:43.680
makers, then things aren't 
going to change. It's

0:43:43.680,0:43:45.760
sort of like we keep building 
the sand castle and

0:43:45.760,0:43:47.600
the the water keeps coming 
in and washing it away

0:43:47.600,0:43:49.760
and we keep going, why is the sand castle going

0:43:49.760,0:43:52.160
away? Because we're not 
doing anything different.

0:43:52.160,0:43:54.400
We're labelling it different, but we're actually

0:43:54.400,0:43:58.720
not doing the work. I think we're about to

0:43:58.720,0:44:02.640
finish up, so I just wanted 
to say one more thing.

0:44:02.640,0:44:05.920
Um, because you know, I'm 
me and I always do, but

0:44:05.920,0:44:09.680
um I wanted to thank I don't think I've thanked

0:44:09.680,0:44:13.680
the NAB Foundation. I've spoken about Sam

0:44:14.400,0:44:18.000
and Dino, but I've been a member of the NAB

0:44:18.000,0:44:20.560
First Nations Advisory Group for a long time.

0:44:20.560,0:44:24.080
in the last couple of years what and

0:44:24.640,0:44:27.440
under Tan's leadership and Ann Sherry what

0:44:27.440,0:44:31.040
a combo that is they co-chair Tanya Hosch

0:44:31.040,0:44:34.320
and Ann Sherry co-chair that body the

0:44:34.320,0:44:38.240
the level of listening has been so different

0:44:38.240,0:44:43.280
and thus the response and there's not many big

0:44:43.280,0:44:46.560
corporations that would be okay with us doing

0:44:46.560,0:44:49.760
this and having this truth 
telling in employment

0:44:50.640,0:44:52.440
And I just want to thank Nab for

0:44:52.440,0:44:54.720
your willingness. Um, and it can't

0:44:54.720,0:44:58.080
always be easy cause I do 
come up with some pretty

0:44:58.080,0:45:02.400
hairbrained ideas, but you 
always adopt them and

0:45:02.400,0:45:08.240
um it's really appreciated. Thank you. Well, on

0:45:08.240,0:45:12.080
that note, uh it's a privilege 
for us to work with

0:45:12.080,0:45:15.200
you and an honor as well. And so that's that's

0:45:15.200,0:45:16.880
our time. We're going to wrap this up. I think

0:45:16.880,0:45:20.000
we've got some flowers for people. for you,

0:45:20.000,0:45:29.440
for Mundine, for Gary, and 
for Robynne. Thank you.

0:45:29.440,0:45:32.560
Thank you everyone. Um, on behalf of everyone,

0:45:32.560,0:45:34.720
I think we can honestly say we could have

0:45:34.720,0:45:36.160
probably sat here for another hour and

0:45:36.160,0:45:39.400
listened to these leaders speak. Um, it's

0:45:39.400,0:45:42.160
impressive to see this kind of panel um,

0:45:42.160,0:45:44.760
talk about the real things we can take back to

0:45:44.760,0:45:48.000
our own organisations. Um, and I'd be remiss

0:45:48.000,0:45:50.720
of me to say that the report is live. You

0:45:50.720,0:45:55.440
can go to the website here, uts.edu.au/cipw.

0:45:55.440,0:45:57.360
Um, it is a very large report.

0:45:57.360,0:45:59.440
Please download it, read it,

0:45:59.440,0:46:01.920
share it with everyone you know. Um, we will

0:46:01.920,0:46:04.240
try and get this video out and online so you

0:46:04.240,0:46:05.760
can share it with your networks. Thank

0:46:05.760,0:46:11.680
you very much. Lunch is at the back.

Speaking truth artwork by Kirsten Gray. 'Speaking truth' explores the nature and extent of the contributions made by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in this land for millennia.
Artwork: Kirsten Gray

About the artwork

Kirsten Gray is a Yuwalaraay/Muruwari woman living on Dharawal country and raising two small children. Her artworks are a contemporary and vibrant reflection of her passion for her Aboriginal culture.

‘Speaking truth’ explores the nature and extent of the contributions made by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in this land for millennia. Long before the birth of the Australian nation, our people were already making significant contributions to their families and communities.

It was the contributions of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people upon the arrival of the British, which helped transform our country into what it is today. Much of this labour was often unpaid, unrecognised and undertaken in discriminatory and harsh conditions. Nonetheless, it is these ongoing contributions of our people which keep each other, our communities and this country, strong.