Social Justice Lawyering and Volunteering

Interested in Social Justice Lawyering and work in the NGO sector? Wondering what experiences Brennan Justice students have when completing their LTS volunteer hours? Come and hear from representatives from social justice and legal organisations, in conversation with Brennan Justice students who have recently volunteered for them. 

The guest speakers will explain the work their organisations do and the students will share their experience of being volunteers as part of the Brennan Justice program. The Justice Talk will give students a chance to meet representatives from the community legal sector and youth education organisations, as well as to learn from their peers about how they got involved. All speakers will share details about their careers and experiences, significant matters or projects they have worked on, the benefits of working in this area, and tips for getting involved and for careers in the social justice sector. 

Transcript: Good afternoon, everyone, welcome to our justice talk. Our first justice talk, actually for Autumn 2025. It's a pleasure to see so many of you here, my name is Dr Anthea Vogl, for those of you whom I haven't met yet. I'm an associate professor of the law faculty but I'm also the faculty co-director of the Brennan Justice and Leadership Program. I'm MCing today's event alongside the wonderful Chloe Ferreira who many of you will know and is one of your student co-directors of the Brennan Program, along with my friend. It's really wonderful to see so many of you here today, and to be joined by our exceptional panel, I feel kind of a safe distance away from them at this point , we're really grateful to the panel for making time to be here and generously participating in the Brennan Justice Program and welcoming one of our final panel members Katie Green who I'll introduce in a moment. We have a seat for you Katie so not a problem. Before we kind of launch into official events I wanted to acknowledge that the UTS law faculty is situated ceded land people and we pay our respects to elders both past and present, acknowledging them as custodians for this land we acknowledge that these lands have always been places of law and today exist within plural legal worlds. Some of you may have heard in that acknowledgement which is formulated by the UTS Law Blak Caucus, the Indigenous Strategy Committee and Jumbunna for the faculty specifically that it recognizes that sovereignty over this land and over the law place where we are has never been ceded, I think that fact is always important but I think it's particularly important for those of us who work with what we might think of as the dominant legal system, so the laws that we learn in class and we talk about and we profess exist in a legal pluralist way. When we think about justice and injustice I think it's great to reflect on the ways in which law is implicated in both positive and negative ways for indigenous justice and so it's really fitting today that our panel is on social justice lawyering work and volunteering  and our panel represents really diverse organizations  involved in both legal and non-legal initiatives all of which are devoted to social justice. Our panel is here today because they are wonderful and valued partners of the Brennan Justice Program and have been spaces where a lot of you students have gone to volunteer make a really fabulous contribution to social justice initiatives via the organizations and via their kind of leadership in their particular spaces in which they work. The panel brings together speakers who have committed their careers or time to broader social justice initiatives and the reason we're here today is really to give you a chance to learn about this work and to start to think about how you might get involved if that's something you want to do, how these organizations might fit into your thinking about career indeed  pro Bono aspects of your career if you don't end up working directly in a social justice organization, I think today's panel is especially  kind of unique because not only are you hearing from I guess leaders in the social justice space but you're hearing from your peers  for Brennan Justice students who have volunteered as part of the program to understand how they got involved in volunteering what it's meant to them the impact that it's had. And to kind of connect you with those volunteering opportunities, if that's something you'd like to do I'm not going to share everyone's bio in detail because that's actually our panel's job today. I shall not steal the thunder, but I will briefly introduce our panel members and if you just oh I can probably do it in order here so on the right to the right of me is Katie Green. Katie is the CEO of the Inner-City Legal Centre the ICLC provides an award-winning New South Wales LGBTQIA+ plus legal service in addition to generalist legal assistance for inner city residents experiencing legal disadvantage. Katie has an amazing career profile before that point which no doubt they'll share with you in a moment   to the left of me here we have Yashvanti Murugan. Yashvanti is a third year LLB and Bachelor of Information Technology student at UTS and has volunteered with the Australian Pro Bono Centre and so then we have Gabrielle Christian Hair who is indeed the CEO of the Australian Pro Bono Centre.  The Centre is Australia's national Centre for leadership for Pro Bono services the Centre activates lawyers to provide Pro Bono support and equips them with a wide range of tools and resources to support their involvement. Next to Gabriella we have Phoebe who is the founder and CEO of Inspired Tomorrow Education Phoebe is the youth adviser and board director advocating for educational equity civic engagement and gender equality  and next to Phoebe; last but not least we have Ruby Ko ruby is a third-year law student  here at UTS and a Bachelor of Arts and International Studies student ruby volunteers with Inspire Tomorrow Education as their education operations director. Ruby is also a legal case manager at the Federal Court of Australia  in terms of how the panel will run  after that each of the speakers briefly introduce themselves and the work they do and give you a bit of an insight into their career we're going to have plenty of time for Q&A so an opportunity for you to ask questions about the work that they do how you might get involved and to understand kind of the social justice implications of their organizations and their volunteering  once formalities wrap up,  there will be some afternoon tea which all of you probably already been and some of you have maybe already snapped up. I really invite everyone to stick around come up and chat to our panellists  who are able to stay,  enjoy the refreshments and have a chance to talk to each other about  potentially working in this space  last but not least a wonderful Ruby will be keeping time for the panel today  and keeping us all in line so that there's plenty of time for Q&A after the panel finishes. So, with that we thought we might we're pairing the organizations that are here with their student volunteers but maybe Katie we might have you first we have student volunteers for some but not all of our panel but Katie and ICLC are great partners of the Brennan Justice programs and we like start here and then move down. Lovely okay, I was going to ask do I need to move the furniture or is this was intentional?  I think we're showcasing our banners. Stay here yeah, we're just remembering the happy times of social distancing maybe I'll stay on okay thank you very much for having me here today it's such an honour to meet you all and I suppose because we're all lawyers in the room or aspiring lawyers I wanted to talk about my journey because it was very nonlinear. I'm one of the rare people in the legal profession that actually have lived experience of homelessness and didn't actually finish high school, so the way I kind of came to my career was slow and I actually qualified I think as a lawyer when I was about 32 so much older so I didn't finish high school.        As a queer young person and in particular the regional area of New South Wales where I lived wasn't a particularly safe space for me so I ran away from home and moved to the city and fell in with the wonderful fabulous queer community of the late 1990s and then slowly and had lots of lived experience during that time of I suppose surviving as a homeless young person in the inner city. So it was a lot of fun but there was also a lot of hardship involved in that and through that experience I got involved in lots of youth advocacy and youth homelessness organizations so started to build my career and my first career was actually in kind of community casework type roles and I worked in a lot of youth homelessness organizations and youth refuges and while doing that immense studies first a bachelor of arts, which I did during the day while working in youth refuges by night and so I had this amazing  career all through my 20s and early 30s working in social justice organizations directly with people so homelessness organizations. The Red Cross I did a lot of work with asylum seekers, and I think through that kind of work I was I guess became somewhat frustrated and jaded by seeing people always in the same situation and supporting people where they were at, but I was like I actually want to do something to support people to drive change. So I went back to school and did a law degree and instantly oh and one of the things that I wanted to do, which is funny I always laugh about this I was like kind of want to get a job where I make a little bit more money than you make working in and instantly found myself on the other side of a law degree, only working in community legal Centres. So that was an interesting life choice that I made for myself. So, it’s but it's such exceptionally rewarding work, so as soon as I finished my law degree, I started work first at Marrickville Legal Centre, where I was the youth solicitor for five years. Briefly went to the bar association where I coordinated pro Bono program there and about two years ago the opportunity came up to lead the ICLC and as somebody from the community that the ICLC serves right across New South Wales I had to jump at it. It's honestly the best job I've ever had in my entire life. I love it so much, particularly because our clients today are by and large people in the trans community. We do lots and lots of anti-discrimination type work supporting trans people who experience discrimination at work in the legal system who have all sorts of criminal justice issues, and we also have a really niche service: the sex worker legal service. Where we are supporting sex workers who experience sexual assault at work and it's a lawful job in New South Wales and has been since 1995 so supporting sex workers with WHS issues and also recouping payments when their clients rip them off. So, it's such incredible wonderful work and it's a real connection for me from when I was a young person now to being able to support the community, so I love it. Thank you so much Katie and we'll have a chance I think for the many questions that will arise and maybe next we'll have Gabriella and then. Yes Gabriella, hi everybody I’m so pleased to be here and thanks so much for to the faculty for the invitation so I did my undergraduate law degree at the University of Sydney and the Australian Pro Bono Centre is actually based at UNSW in the faculty there so it's a rare occasion that I would step into UTS, so very pleased to be here because we're based at UNSW we often have interns  coming to us from the faculty there but we're so happy to have this newer arrangement with UTS to program and Yash has been our first intern which has been a fabulous experience for us  so I'll talk a little bit about what the Centre does in a moment. But just to give you sort of a little bit of background to my career trajectory, so like Katie I've had a very long nonlinear experience but also I think you the experience that I've had is shows that it is possible to actually start your law career in a in a very commercial way and actually draw in social justice into that world or in fact pivot entirely from commercial work to social justice work. So I started off in in one of the largest law firms in Sydney first as a paralegal while I was studying and then as a graduate  I then went and joined one of the big firms in London I was doing mergers and acquisitions and other sort of corporate finance work  and I had  two and a half years working for that firm in Tokyo also with a very corporate finance bench  and then went back to London and I joined a big investment bank and I was in house council  with them for about three and a half years so very commercial focused but the whole time I had this this real desire to be involved in something that was very much social justice and human rights focused. So, I think looking back I had a fantastic experience in the commercial world, and I built up so many legal skills through that experience, but I just had this overwhelming hankering to be focusing those skills in a really different context. So, I went, and I went to Damascus, and I put up my hand to work pro Bono for UNHCR and this was during the time when there was the Iraqi refugee crisis. And within a week of doing that I just knew that I was in the right place and that I really wanted to focus on human rights and social justice going forward and so they ended up offering me a paid job and I ended up staying there for a while. And then I went to Jerusalem, and I was very lucky to get a position as special adviser to head of mission working for the office of the quartet representative. Which used to be led by Tony Blair, the former British prime minister, and there was a wonderful team there full of international experts and Palestinian advisers and Israeli advisers and with this the Centre, there set up to support Palestinian institution building and economic viability. So, I did that for a while which was fantastic and then I ended up being on maternity leave then for a while and bizarrely I was invited   this was also during a time when I was having some more international moves, and I ended up with my family in Turkey for a while. I was asked to join a film financing partnership. So this is something I could do while I while I had two very small children and I was very much using my legal skills again once again in a different context and it was a great thing to do while I had two very small children but then with coming back to Australia I was very keen to get back into the human rights and social justice world and this the opportunity came up to be at the head of policy and strategy at the Centre. So, I did that for two years and then moved into the role of CEO at the Centre. We are very much focused on supporting lawyers across the profession to be involved in pro Bono legal work you might be surprised to know that Australian lawyers do the second highest number of Pro Bono hours of any legal cohort in the world, after lawyers in the United States. So, the Bono sector here is very mature very established and it is as I was saying very possible to have a commercial career in fact and do pro Bono work on the side. I realize I'm running out of time so I might stop there but during the Q&A I'd be really pleased to talk to you about you know how you can get involved in the pro Bono world. Next, we have Phoebe. Thank you so much for inviting me to this panel, it's such an honour to get to meet so many fellow law students as well. So, my name's Phoebe I’m a 3rd year arts law student at the University of Sydney and I'm also the founder and CEO of Inspire Tomorrow Education. What we do at Inspire Tomorrow Education is we're a youth-led not-for-profit organization, that is dedicated to breaking down the barriers to higher education. We focus on empowering students who are in high school who are experiencing any form of disadvantage by providing them with tutoring, mentorship and scholarship support, to improve university admissions within disadvantaged cohorts. In terms of the main thing that we do, we do run a tutoring program and we've had so much incredible success working with students at UTS. What we do in this tutoring program is we pair up high achieving university students or people who were high achievers in high school with a student who may be experiencing a barrier to education all across New South Wales. So, as a tutor in this role, you can dedicate up to one hour a week or one hour a fortnight, working with mentoring and learning with a student who may be indigenous may be in public housing, they may be experiencing any form of disability. Students from all backgrounds participate in this program we've had such incredible success in terms of beautiful relationships between you know law students who are you know about to go on and do incredible things in their career and also give back to students who may be wanting to follow in the exact same footsteps as you. I think one of the most special things about this program, I'm sure Ruby will be able to attest to this as well, is not only we receive beautiful feedback when we create these lovely pairings between the two students but also, we really do notice that students, after they meet their volunteer tutor, are more likely to pursue higher education. That is something that we focus on in our organization, is not just improving the grades of students to help them access university, but also the desire for social mobility and aspiration for higher education.  I’m very proud to say that in 2024 100% of the students that participate in our program said they would be more likely to go to university after meeting their tutor and after working with their tutor. I think that's a really good example of the incredible, tangible impact that you can have as a volunteer tutor in a manner that is exceptionally low effort. We try our very best at our organization to make sure that your schedule when you're working with us and volunteering is suited to your needs. We're both students ourselves so we know exactly what it's like to manage a university workload but also fulfill that desire that you may have to give back to communities who are experiencing disadvantage and also make sure that your future university cohorts are representative of what Australia looks like. A little bit about why I started this organization, when I was starting my you know first law lecture we had a room of about 400 people and we had a very esteemed high court justice come and speak to our cohort and this high court justice is a huge advocate for public education and in a room of about 400 people he asked everyone in this room to raise their hand if they went to a public school and in this room 400 people, there are about 12 hands that went up. That was a statistic that absolutely shocked me, I grew up in a regional area, I am first in family to go to university, but to look around this cohort knowing that all of us are going to be people who will be in positions of power, we are the future change makers and the decision makers the fact that that room and that degree is not reflective of the true diversity of what Australia looks like is a huge issue and we know the statistics surrounding educational equity and how valuable education is as a tool for social mobility and for creating change in our society and I really did believe that when I looked around this room, I know so many incredible smart law students who have so much to give and I thought to myself if I could pair them up with someone who maybe wants to follow in their footsteps and has the potential and the capacity to go on and create change, imagine what kind of incredible things we could do by facilitating that level of knowledge sharing. So that's I guess the reason why Inspire Tomorrow Education came about at the moment we're a thriving team of nearly 90 volunteers. We operate all across Australia and our main tutoring program is in New South Wales. We work with a bunch of incredible schools and incredible partner organizations to make this reality happen and we have been able to help around 65 students on their journey to university so far, many of whom I'm sure will go on to do absolutely wonderful things. Another thing that we're doing at our organization this year, is also launching the scholarships and careers mentoring program. One of the big things we've noticed as an organization is that a lot of people need financial aid to be able to get the most out of tertiary education and there are many people at university who have been successful recipients of a scholarship. What we do in this program is we pair you up with a student who typically will be a refugee a recently arrived migrant, someone from an indigenous background and helping them apply for a scholarship it's up to four hours a month so very low effort and relatively low commitment and in these kinds of sessions you sit down with a student you talk about your own journey to university what you're doing at university but you also sit down and help students write find and apply for scholarships. And this program is going to be able to help so many kids access the transformative funding they need to be able to get the most out of their degree and actually begin to pursue a career pathway that they really align with and in these sessions as well there's a wonderful opportunity again for you to step up and be a role model and a mentor to a lot of these students. I think again another really special part about our organization is you very well could be the first person that these students have ever met you might be the first person who's has graduated high school or graduated or attended university or is graduating from university and that's something that is incredibly rewarding. I think to be a role model for someone we really do believe at our organization that you can't be what you can't see and I think we've had so much incredible success by facilitating these kinds of human connections and pairings to make sure that the next generation as well is able to go on and become incredible change makers in their community. So that's a little bit about us but yeah, I think I'll wrap up there. Thanks so much Phoebe so many great themes across the panel and such inspiring presentations already we'll now move to the volunteers for some of the organizations that we've heard from. So, Yashvanti, I invite you to speak about your experience of volunteering with Gabriella and the Australian Pro Bono Centre. Hello, I'm Yashvanti, I’m a third-year law and IT student doing Bachelor of Law and IT. Sorry if I sound nervous, I am nervous and I'm not as adequate as my members. Yeah, I'm sorry about that but basically, I found this opportunity through Outlook so if you're in the Brennan program I actually highly recommend that you go through your Outlook every single day because there will be opportunities no matter what you do on the on our outlook and we'll get emails no matter what happens. So I recommend like you go through Outlook and you look at your emails because that's what I did and that's how I knew that they were actually looking for interns and I wanted to be a lawyer because I really wanted to go into that social justice space i watched a bunch of movies in my year 12 and then I was like I have to do this because this looks so cool and I really wanted to help those people who just didn't have access to the law system so I when I saw Pro Bono Centre’s opportunity I was like I have to do this. So I applied to be in like for the internship and yeah it's just because I was motivated to do social justice the tasks that I did I helped out with researching government policies and legal frameworks, I helped draft and develop articles that advocated for pro Bono, I also helped found volunteer opportunities for those like for lawyers for PLT students and for young lawyers and we basically put them all onto this website called social justice opportunities. So, if you're a law student who's in your final year or you're looking for PLT opportunities or you want to be in social justice I highly suggest that you go onto this website for more opportunities and go from there because they have some really good opportunities on that website. I also helped with create like curating a list of companies who would be willing to do the pro Bono survey. I believe and that actually helped the Centre understand how companies need better policies to support them and how they need more support in order to effectively pro Bono practices.  I think the biggest thing that I did like the most highlighter work that I did in during my internship or like my volunteer role sorry was that I actually helped create a list of recommendations on how to improve the social justice opportunity website on like how to make it more marketable, I was actually combining my experience as a bachelor of information and technology student in order to help with the Pro Bono Centre and I found that really important because I realized that there was this space where technology and social justice can effectively merge together and create more avenues for those people who are poor, who are vulnerable or who are disadvantaged to access the legal system and I find that my experience as a volunteer actually just opened my eyes to the social justice system. It's not just about like going and talking with clients as well it's also helping lawyers it's also figuring out policies that can actually help advocate for pro Bono and that itself was so important to me as like a second year student because I didn't know what I was going to do with my life, but then going into this volunteer space it actually helped me think about these different opportunities and these different avenues to actually help people. Which I think was very important to me but yeah thank you so much for having me there as an intern amazing experience guys the team was full of women, and it was like so good the work culture was amazing and that's all I have. A little bit more diverse we have one man sorry.  thank you so much Yashvanti I have hundred questions floating across my mind, so we'll have time for them soon, but last but not least over to Ruby to speak about her volunteer experience. So, I currently volunteer as an education operations director at ITE, and I was very lucky-Phoebe, and I actually went to the same school, and we come from the same area. So, when she sorts of posted on her socials and her LinkedIn that she was looking at reaching out for people in her network to come aboard and help I guess kickstart this program at this company, I was very delighted to put my hands up apply. Tutoring and I guess teaching has always been a big part of my life, I’ve been tutoring since I was in high school. Primary school students I've been teaching dance and Pilates since I was in high school as well so that's always been a big part of my life and as I was wrapping up my HSC pursuing a career in education and as a teacher was something that I was highly considering until I sort of made the very last minute switch to go into law, because I guess my passion for advocacy kind of trumped that a little bit but even still then since I've started university I've continued to tutor both for companies and also for myself through people that I know and recommendations that I take and I sort of took on that opportunity to become the education operations director because I have seen and I've heard just how I guess tutoring and the private tutoring sector in New South Wales especially has  become not only saturated but has almost become I guess a necessity that if you are able to get this extra help and this extra tuition that's almost like a guarantee that you'll do well in HSC and that you'll be able to access a wide range of choices for university and your tertiary education. And for that to be I guess a huge financial barrier that a lot of people who are facing disadvantage can't access that was, didn't quite sit well with me either so I guess Phoebe and I are coming from very similar veins in terms of why we're passionate about this area and so as education operations director I've been very privileged to have the opportunity to shape the direction and the processes of the tutoring team and our tutoring program so I get the opportunity to I guess develop our processes. So in terms of how we pair students in terms of reaching out to different schools and university societies and companies to expand of where we're getting our volunteer tutors from to collaborate with our tutoring officers who sort of help with the admin and the running of that program to think about how we can grow whether that be interstate or also whether that be in terms of how we're helping not only our students but also our tutors as well and so I think when we were able to collaborate with the Brennan Society last year that was really special and I think we were everyone in our tutoring team was overwhelmed by the number of applications and responses we got from Brennan program students and we have had such wonderful feedback from not only the students who Brennan program students who volunteer with us as tutors but also the students who've been paired with them because as Phoebe mentioned you can't be what you can't see and it's really that visibility and breaking down the unknown of what university can look like that I guess motivates and really helps these students I guess  diminish their fears of the unknown and help them realize that tertiary education is a possible pathway for them and help them to pursue whatever it is that they want to pursue in their future. Wonderful thank you so much Ruby let's give our panel a round of applause before we move.

Such an energizing and inspiring set of experiences and a real crossover I think between the kinds of works and the kind of goals that each organization is trying to achieve and that the volunteers are working towards. What we might do I don't think we have overflow from the other room. We don't? Great so we’re all here in this room today we actually had a backup overflow room because there was such immense interest in this panel and everything our speakers have to offer. We'll have a Q&A session if you have a question, we might you'd have to introduce yourselves and if you have a question for a particular panel member just let them know. If it's more of a general question then I just invite whoever on the panel would like to respond and feel like that means something to them  to respond to the question that's being asked  and so we'll open it up to the floor for questions to the panel either about the work that they've  their own career paths and parts of the work that they've mentioned or anything else that's occurred to you all.

Hi, I'm McKenzie, I'm second year law I just had a question for all of you like: how often you have availabilities for volunteer work come up? If it's a frequent thing or once a year or it's like unlimited and how we could get involved?

Mckenzie I literally I came from this. So yeah volunteers and I failed to do this in my five minutes volunteers are the absolute lifeblood of ICLC our volunteer to staff ratio is about 50/50 actually so 50% volunteer and it's a mix right from the stage you guys are at up to lots of pro Bono hours from law firms and thanks to Gabriella's wonderful organization for really embedding that stuff within law firm culture. So literally this morning all of our phones are on in the morning and the phones are responded to 100% by people in your cohort and supervised by a client intake supervisor  so we respond to walk-ins phone calls web forms, all of these people all over New South Wales trying to seek legal assistance and it all is triage and talking to people booking them in assessing legal need collecting documents and my poor. It's really because it is really law student powered it's kind of feast to famine so some shifts there'll be like seven people show up and it's wild but this morning the client intake supervisor was all by herself so there's always, always, always opportunities and I think you can come to us either via the pro program or directly. So yeah, and is is there a kind of an open call for volunteers Katie? Yes, we do intakes so, but we tend to do about three takes a year and there's also on the job training depending on what. So, I think if you were to put an inquiry you might get a call fairly soon because yeah, we do intake in drips and drabs and there's also training that happens across the year as well on both legal issues and working with clients directly. So, working with our client cohort in particular down the panel yeah that's okay yeah, we don't have any particulars timing when it comes to taking on volunteers and interns it very much just depends on whether we've got capacity to supervise at a particular time. We definitely don't take on nearly as many as Katie does that's for sure, but we do have opportunities that come up from time to time. We're very much the same we assess applications on a rolling basis, so at any point we are always looking for volunteers. Similar I'm sure for all of our organizations we are 100% volunteer run the success of our program is solely contingent upon incredible people who are willing to come and give their time another good benefit of our program as well is that it's 100% online and also we do train you in teaching and child safe organization principles and things like that but yeah we're always looking for volunteer tutors.

Questions yeah? Jay third year law student. I think Phoebe already kind of answered this one but for Gabrielle and Katie how many hours like would you expect your volunteers to be contributing. Such a good question and actually what I would say is don't make the commitment if you're not actually willing to put in the time and this is like I guess the dark side of volunteering which I try not to talk about too much but  when you're working with a resourced organization I would say there's probably I don't know there's probably a good two to three days investment on our end to support volunteers to learn the job and we do see quite a lot of drop off which is quite disappointing for us. We accept it we roll with it we know that that's how it goes probably for the for the law student cohort so that intake and client support work someone left yesterday. We're going to post about it on our social media but she's been with us one day a week for about a year we're obviously on her CV and she's just walked into her first sort of policy role as a I think a bridging role between her legal qualification and her admission, so she's done really great and she's say the optimum volunteer. So for that I would think yeah about one day for a year would mean you're actually really making a contribution and you're also really learning the role properly over that time yeah and there are is that in terms of those guidelines would one day a week be something that ICLC is thinking about from volunteers yeah ideally a half like we do half days because obviously we appreciate that law students have busy lives and I mean to that point of privilege as well like often the volunteer the people that want to volunteer the most actually are juggling studying and work. If they have to support themselves so we are really conscious of that and one observation I think would have is that a lot of people that come from the less privileged backgrounds tend to be able to give the most as well so yeah we try and tailor the program to what the person needs and to be flexible i would just kind of say and echo that questions of equity and privilege and who can give time and how difficult that is when you when, our law students have to work and study at the same time and our Brennan partners know one of the things that motivates the program is giving you all opportunity sometimes if ICLC needs a one-off job or something that is a little bit more ad hoc for some student for you to get volunteer experience if you don't have that capacity to make those kind of long-term commitments or that you might have that capacity later on in your law degree but you might want to get a little sense of what it's like. So that's that that idea of the there's a spectrum of ways to get involved which is something that I think Gabriella was pointing out to. But yeah Gabriella of time commitment and scope so I we also think that one day a week works really well we also are cognizant of all of the juggle that's for sure and so we have had  volunteers do say two half days during the week before but I would say working a whole day just allows you to dive a bit more deeply into the activities that you're  working on but also just to get to know the staff  within the organization a bit better as well and I mean we are very open to the number of weeks involved in in in volunteering often we would take a volunteer you know for probably maximum a semester at UNSW that's a trimester. So, it's a little bit shorter but that's yeah that's more or less how we work maybe was there anything you wanted to add around some of your descriptions around volunteering I mean simply put for our tutoring program as you know it's maximum typically we do ask people if they are interested to do more than one hour a week. But the minimum is one hour of fortnight we are both law students we both work we both study we know how hard it is to manage everything, and I know when you know I was kind of beginning my degree. I was someone that really did want to give back, but I did not have a lot of time in all honesty. And I think we've intentionally set up our program to make sure that law students feel like they can work one-on-one and really see a tangible impact and the difference they're making in someone's life and have that really personal connection. So yeah, we would say it would be minimum 1 hour a fortnight one hour a week if you're interested and yeah, it's 100% all online and designed to work for you. You also pick the tutoring hour that you do you work directly with the student to schedule the hour exactly around whatever you want to do, so this could be mornings, weekends, evenings whatever works it's the whole program is designed to work for both people. So, we do we really think it's very flexible. And I might just direct part of that question to Yash and Ruby as well, if you had reflections on managing kind of volunteering alongside your work and study or if there's anything, kind of sparks for you in that sense of you know what your volunteering load has been and what that's meant alongside all of your other responsibilities and day-to-day work. Yes, definitely for both myself and also seeing how it plays out for the people who volunteer with us. I think speaking to my personal experience it can be very difficult. I know for me personally my commute is quite long so trying to manage that whilst also working in person in the city coming to classes and managing it on top of that there are weeks where it's very hard, but I think the important thing is that you don't overcommit yourself to too many things as well. I think the more that you're passionate about something and the more that you pursue, it the more that you'll naturally give to it and I think in terms of finding that balance it's ensuring that you're volunteering with organizations that you're really passionate about and that you do want to give back and when you do want to do that you'll make time and space in your life. With that as well so I guess from that my biggest thing is don't overcommit yourself and to communicate as well with whoever is above you or whoever you report to when you're volunteering if you know it's a really busy exam period or assessment assignment season if you communicate and let them know you know my availability or my capacity is a little bit limited at the moment but once maybe uni break starts you can pick up some more time and some more tasks. I think, communication and knowing your limits and your own capacity is really important in terms of managing and balancing all of that as well. I think Ruby has said it really nicely. So that was most of what I was going to say my advice as also a Brennan student who volunteers a lot, I’d suggest that you go small first if you're unsure if you can manage the workload or not like. Go I'm pretty sure they like offer volunteer opportunities for like one day we just help out like a team set up an event, and then if you can handle that then I would suggest going into volunteering with like three months or like going with larger firms because ultimately, you don't want to disadvantage them at the same time and sabotage yourself and your education. So, if you are unsure, I highly suggest going small first and then proceeding with larger commitments because that's what I did. Because I procrastinate a lot so I didn't know if I could do an intern role. Was it obvious? Oh yeah when it comes to work when it comes to work I don't procrastinate but then like when it's like initially in my first year I knew I procrastinated a lot and so that's why I went small first and then I was like okay I can actually handle this like I know what I'm doing i can put a schedule down and I can actually do my work and then I applied for the Pro Bono Centre. But yeah. Super, thank you. Just saw a lot of heads nodding at the procrastination lecturer. Okay other questions. Oh, so many, maybe we'll take we might take two and then come to the panel and then take another round. So just in front of me here. Yeah, I was just running it would be quite different for Phoebe and Ruby but how much because I'm a first year, how much practical legal training or training education do you need to volunteer? Great question and then just behind you yeah, I’m a first-year student also and I just wonder like what kind of character like you value most as an employer. Great so experience and character that question. So, we might come to our panel and then take some more questions. Happy to jump in with that one i think you know in terms of experience we really don't as long as you received a band five or a band six as a minimum in the subject that you would like to teach that is all we require. In terms of you know the experience of our previous volunteer tutors a lot of people have never tutored before we provide you with all the resources, we think you need in order to be empowered in the role and feel like you can make a difference and make an impact. So, it is a little bit of learning on the job but in terms of accessibility requirements we didn't require any previous experience, as long as you have a working with children check as well and you also have your basics that's basically all you need. In terms of the character element, I definitely do think we require someone who is passionate, I think that's I'm sure for many organizations you need someone who is willing to commit to the cause. I think so many of our volunteer tutors have lived experience with educational equity which really drives them in the role that they perform but also in terms of you know our working relationship with the tutors we love to work with people who really believe in what we do and we find that the people who really have that passion get the most out of our organization. Yeah, I would say in terms of qualities:  reliability like one of the and it's not just L like across the board is kind of the I think again dark side. When you're not paying someone, you know people show up to work because they're getting paid whereas volunteers’ various reasons and the life reasons that we were talking about can be less reliable. But that so yeah punctuality and communicating if not able to make a shift is something that we really value, and it is we like we get ghosted we find quite a lot like more and more just like people stop showing up and we like are you okay? We want to make sure, you know? And also, that communication so we know if we can provide a better experience for people is really important and on qualifications yeah, I would say for most people if they've made it to university then they're qualified to pick up the phone and assist us with our assessing clients. But actually, on that another thing that I've observed is you know a minimum like the confidence to use phones and also to talk to people. There's something that I've observed when people step into and I remember this because I also did my law degree at UNSW and because I already had heaps of experience working with clients when I came to do my practical you know my first  volunteer shift at Kingsford Legal Centre like someone next to me actually had a panic attack and passed out and I was like oh my god it's just about talking to a person. But because it was a client in a law legal Centre context that all of a sudden became terrifying. So, I think the confidence to be able to talk to people, the confidence to be able to use the phone that's another really weird one that I've observed that's a lot of people actually find using the phone terrifying but yeah being a frontline service the Yeah and fake it till you make it is what I say. As well it's so interesting seeing people on their first shift and they're absolutely terrified it's like you know rip the band-aid off have the phone call you're not going to break them you're not going to make anyone's problems worse. Like just as long as you don't make people's problems worse than you know it's such a great learning experience from there and it's also a really great confidence builder as well. Great Thank you. Yeah, that and that sense of training and supervision so when every there's if anything goes wrong, I mean this is what we say in the clinical programs here at UTS, the buck doesn't stop with you as a student. So that kind of empowers you to learn and get to a point where you feel incredibly confident to do all the things that Katie mentioned, including speaking on the phone which I think must be quite a foreign thing for most of you. Yeah, any other comments from the panel yeah? Yeah, I mean I would just say curiosity I think is key so there's nothing better than having a volunteer or intern come to us and clearly, they're there to learn, asking lots of questions and this a willingness to just roll up your sleeves and get stuck in. And also, in line with what Katie said just that backing yourself, so I mean. When I was when I started my law degree, I did not have a clue about the profession, the sector i really didn't know very much at all but I think just that willingness to just ask lots of questions and learn. When if you feel like you really don't know very much at all and you're lacking in confidence, is really critical. Thank you, yeah had a question up the back there and any other questions that I can take at the same time okay up the front so first up the back yeah. I'm Mia I just wanted to ask if there was opportunity within your work to work alongside governments or contribute to law form or develop policy just because I know that I think working on an individual basis to achieve justice can sometimes be quite jading someone who works in a social justice space. So, I was just wondering if that's something that you guys do? Questions and up the front here. My name is Sophia I’m first year law and communications this question is probably more directed to Gabriella and in terms of your experience internationally and I can imagine you might have been dabbling a little bit in diplomacy work from what I understand did you find that that was fulfilling that social justice desire because that's something that I'm potentially thinking about future path.

Yeah, go ahead and then we'll come back to the other question. Okay sure, yeah so yes, I would say it did. And I think if you're operating in that world in that diplomatic world or something that that involves, I suppose working for a government u representing a government representing your country in a particular context then you're inevitably going to be focused in some way on social justice matters, international development matter, which of course touches on human rights as well. So absolutely I would say yes that's another route that you could take if you have that that strong desire to move in that direction. And then Mia's question about law reform opportunities and the idea of working alongside government and more structural approaches to social justice and change.

So happy to may it was it was like I planted you there. Like love law reform and it's really challenging actually contributing to law reform discussions in a frontline environment, so we have to balance the clients but we're also when we have the resources to do it, we're the best at it because we've got all of the stories. So, a lot of those wonderful organizations that just do policy and advocacy don't necessarily have the client stories. So we really love to contribute to it and do when we can and most of our first drafts of our law reform pieces as different inquiries come up are drafted either by yeah our front desk volunteers or our it's stuff we tend to do more at the PLT stage, contribute to law reform discussions, but by way of example I'm so glad we did it. Everybody laughed about it when it first came out, but there's a New South Wales parliamentary inquiry into public toilets happening at the moment and we did a submission that talked about mostly better design for gender-neutral people and well gender neutral toilets and more inclusive toilets for trans and gender diverse folks but also a little bit on access to toilets for homeless folks because we're also the inner city inner city catchment. So, a little bit particularly about access to public so for people in gig economy workers, people experiencing homelessness, so our submission was all about all of those things. No idea how to design this kind of toilet but that's the problem for the government and really exciting there's going to be public hearings coming up and we're going to be speaking at the public hearing. So that's just one example of something that we're doing at the moment and it's really important for us to be contributing to those brig bigger conversations to actually change laws and policy. so yeah, it's a really big part of what we do. Thanks Katie. We don't take a specialization in law reform but that's not to say that we definitely don't do advocacy work on the side. Last year we were invited to the isolated children's parents association conference and we spoke at New South Wales Parliament House alongside deputy premier Pure Car talking about the value of funding public schools and especially working with different organizations to try and lobby the government to make substantive change in this area. There is certainly the opportunity to join that aspect of our team we do a lot of team work together to be able to create this kind of change if individual work is something that you don't find super enjoyable when it comes to achieving justice something else that we also do on the partnership side at the moment is we have built a scholarships resource that's been written by highly successful scholarship applicants and that is like a 40-page document it's the first of its kind in Australia and we actually are working with organizations in Afghanistan and Gaza to try and get this resource to different students all around the world to be able to help them apply for scholarship funding and move to Australia and escape violence. So, we do a lot of advocacy work in this space both internationally and also domestically but at our core unfortunately we are a service program, so we don't take specialization in law reform.

Go ahead Gabriel. Yeah sure. So, at the Centre we do less direct law for advocacy work. Unless the work is relating to a client group or a practice area that we know lots of pro Bono work is undertaken for. The sort of advocacy that we do at the Centre is more about building and maintaining the conditions within the profession to support lawyers to be doing pro Bono work, so just slightly different context. Other questions from the audience, yeah. My name is Bella, I’m a third-year law and communication student. I was just wondering how you kind of stay motivated and positive about being you know a social justice focused lawyer when I feel like a lot of the industry is very much pushing that kind of commercial side of things, how do you balance those two interests or if you have any kind of general advice in that sense. Great question Bella now it's like I planted you. Yeah, because part of this is about trying to balance all of that focus on a commercial and corporate pathway absolutely some student's choice but you know thinking about how that works within is another question and a really good one.  yeah, should I go? Okay jump in. So, this is a really good question. So, as I was saying earlier it is really possible to pursue a commercial route but still be involved in social justice work and so there's sort of there sort of three main approaches you might say. So firstly, you can always volunteer at any time in a personal capacity and of course there are opportunities while you're a student but equally when you become qualified you know you could go to one of the community legal Centres or another community organization to be involved in pro Bono work in your own time. But also, there is increasingly opportunities to join say a commercial law firm and be involved in pro Bono work for that law firm. And as I mentioned the sector in Australia is enormous just in the last year alone there were over 700,000 hours of pro Bono support provided by lawyers. Mostly in law firms some in in barristers chambers some in-house lawyers as well but mostly law firms. Which is fabulous and across a wide range of practice areas as well. So that's another route and also what we're seeing is that there are more and more and more dedicated pro Bono, lawyers that are being appointed within law firms across the country to manage their practices and that is that allows you to have full social justice focus but still work in a commercial context. So, there are about 150 dedicated pro Bono lawyers now across the country and 30 of them are partners in big law firms. Some law firms such as Clayton Mes and Gilbert to and Gilbert and Tobin Watton and Carney, have two pro Bono partners. And every year we just seem to see more and more and more dedicated pro Bono lawyers appointed. So, it is hard to get those roles obviously they're currently few and far between, but we are predicting that more and more lawyers will be appointed with that focus to get those roles you often have to start with a commercial focus and be known within the law firms themselves. But it is possible to pursue that that route within a commercial context so yeah. To answer your question, you can balance it is possible. One of those Watton and Carney pro Bono full-time pro Bono partners has a great partnership with the faculty too which is something you guys can investigate through the internship program or ask me if you're interested. I mean I think I'd add to that. I think it comes somewhat from within. I think you sort of know what you want to do when you grow up even though I'm still doing that obviously but yeah you know I think people that want to work for the Aboriginal Legal Service know that they want to do that. You know I I think like I said earlier I had this idea that I was going to maybe shift into one of those kind of pro Bono roles in a commercial context, but actually culturally that's just not really the kind of place I want to work, like I like swearing too much and you know that's rigid work culture so I think it does depend on the kind of place that you want to work and but yeah one thing that I know because we have so many wonderful pro Bono partnerships where secondees come as part of and it's one of the great one of the reasons we're really lucky actually being based in King's Cross. It's really easy for our pro Bono partners to come and work with us and they find that those days are such a relief for them and such an excellent change of scene, pace, context from what they do in their day job. And confidentially we've got one and we actually have to sign all of these agreements with our pro Bono partners that we're not going to poach our commercial staff. So, some people come and have such a great experience they're like actually happy to take the pay cut this is what I want to do full-time and. So, we actually have to not poach our pro Bono partners and people need to come at it their own way. Yeah, we've got someone who's she's with us today and she's taking care of our duty room at the Downing Centre Local Court, where we provide the only LGBTQ domestic violence safe room in all of New South Wales. So she's manning that room this morning and then she's going to come and do some work with me this afternoon when I go back in, and her story is actually she's got at the moment 10 billable hours per day in her day job which is probably not super healthy like she works 10 billable hours which means she actually works something like 12 hours a day but she comes to us and she just does her billables are just for her day with us and so she's like, culturally again going oh actually maybe something different for me. But yeah you find your way and you know the kind of place that you want to work in I think right and that sense from the panellists I guess about the windy parts of their careers that they didn't start in a place that they ended up and I love that part of your story Gabriella where it's like you get an experience and you realize that might what you want to do and you don't have to figure that out at this particular moment i think it's really important i actually had a question for our volunteer panellists. Just thinking about how volunteering and the experiences that you've had have affected I guess your approaches of your careers or how you think about your law degree and where you might think you end up if it's had an impact, it might be too early to think about those things but if you had reflections about that. Well throughout my first I guess first year and a half of uni; I supported myself through various hospitality jobs and tutoring as well but I was very lucky to actually get the opportunity to start working at court as a legal case manager and I taking on that role. Not only has the skills and the experience that I had at it helped me in that interview and helped me get that role but also being within the courts system now and taking on more of a case management role I have a greater appreciation I guess for the process of case management itself and for ensuring that I guess  what go to the courts and the experience that people have especially our litigants in person that they also have access to you know safe, just and cheap I guess access to justice. Currently the registers that I'm assisting working to really revolutionize the litigative person space and the support that litigants which is I guess the more official name for self-represented litigants receive in the courts, in federal court jurisdiction specifically. And I also have the opportunity to work with pro Bono within the courts. So if a judge happens to refer a self-represented litigant to get some pro Bono assistance sort of liaising with the bar association there and trying to find representation for them which is not always easy those barristers are also often having to volunteer for some quite out there cases but yes definitely being able to see I guess not just be pigeon holed into one area of law but just experience such a wide range of what the legal system and the court especially has to offer is very valuable.

Or me, I found that volunteering actually helped me understand different types of social justice that are available to us. It's not when I first started off, I didn't really know what I was going to do. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do my IT degree was actually a backup case I realized that the law degree was not working out for me I was too weak in it and I think volunteering at the Centre actually helped me realize that I'm able to combine my skills to help both. And I think that's something that a lot of people with double degree should also consider how your other degree can actually help your current degree and what you can do within it. So during the Centre I helped with a bunch of research and I actually found that very interesting and I really liked it so I actually did a lot of competitions because of the work that we I did at the pro Bono Centre and it actually really helped me understand that I really liked academia, I really like researching topics about like AI and law and how that actually impacts social justice and I got successful in some of the competitions. I won some of them, thank you. But I think it was so eye-opening, because I just thought social justice was just like you visit people's homes and then you talk to them but then there's a lot more beyond that it's about advocacy. It's about like pro Bono it's about having those practices and actually embedding those practices in your daily work, which I feel like has a wider outreach as well like it impacts a lot more people than just going to people's houses and just being like "Do you guys need help?". So that's what I thought I was very sheltered when I first went into law, but I feel like volunteering really helped me understand the implications of social justice. Yeah we are getting close to time  I feel like there has been so many kind of amazing themes and a lot of inspiration from the panel huge question about I mean because of relevant to all of us here equity of access to education and entering the legal profession and what kind of responsibilities come with that once you're at law school and you start making decisions about how to use your education and your role as lawyers once you graduate and for those of you who become admitted  and start practicing  the ways in which you can continue kind of be true to your principles your politics, things that are important to you.  In a kind of diverse settings and without necessarily taking one path towards the things that might be important to you. I just wanted to see if the panel had any last reflections or absolutely don't have to have a last reflection but is there anything you wanted to say that we didn't get to before I hand over to Chloe to give our vote of thanks and wrap us up.

I have a few flyers that move alongside and so that have details through to social justice opportunities which I should also mention and or the Australian pro Bono Centre website. But also global the global pro Bono hub which also has a jobs board looking at pro Bono opportunities all over the world as well, so yeah I'll just leave those on the side, international pro Bono opportunities that sounds pretty good. Anything else from any of the other panels. Similar plug please follow the inner city legal Centre on Instagram, find out what we're up to, LinkedIn is your poison we are also on that great thanks Katie yeah and we'll leave some business cards as well over the side so and also please feel free to come and chat to Ruby. I said organization amazing and I'll invite you yeah I'm just going to stand on the side here on behalf of the UTS Faculty of Law and also the Law Student Society I just would like to express a massive thank you to all of our panellists Gabriella, Phoebe, Katie Yashvanti and Ruby for generously taking time to share your expertise and advice into both social justice lawyering and volunteering generally and how we as law students can get involved now, but also what opportunities we have moving forward I think we've all been quite fortunate to hear your insights and I speak on behalf of all attendees when I say it has been enlightening to see how we can advocate for meaningful change in the future but also right now. So thank you for what you all have done in spearheading some of these changes in your various organizations and roles as well as sharing your knowledge. We do have a small token of appreciation to thank our panellists for their invaluable insights if someone is willing to help me pass these down

Whilst Crystal is doing that I also would like to thank Anthea, Crystal, Sivaan, Ma’ayan and all the other student volunteers who have helped with the putting together and the administration of today's presentation through our attendees. Your participation is invaluable we appreciate it in running today's session so I'd just like to remind you that your five RJ points for attending will be automatically added and we encourage all of you here to engage with this topic with our panellists in the networking section and you are able to do additional reflections by submitting a 350word reflection on today's event if you'd like to earn further ROJ points. Lastly, keep an eye out for upcoming events, so we have our second Brennan talk which is on climate change and homelessness to do with the Koala's documentary on the 3rd of April. We would love to see you there, we also have a few spots available in the fourth Brennan yarning circle if you're interested in that and signups are open for the discussion groups if you have questions of any of those events feel free to come to myself, Anthea or Crystal. I'd like to now invite you all to enjoy some refreshments and thank you again for attending all our panellists