Positive leadership in challenging times

Descriptive transcript

Welcome to the Australian POS Community of Practice.

Our third event is hosted by myself, Dr Rosemary Sainty, at UTS Business School, and my colleague Dr Suzy Green, the founder and CEO of the Positivity Institute. The purpose of our POSCOP is really to bring theory together with practice for those interested in fostering positive organisations.

For our third event, we had wonderful speakers: Kim Cameron, co-founder of Positive Organisational Scholarship; Louise Baxter, Chief Executive Officer of the Starlight Children's Foundation; and Anne Johnston, Principal of Ravenswood School for Girls. We hope that you enjoy this webinar.

KIM CAMERON: I encounter a lot of executives, military officers, attorneys, engineers, scientists, who say, "Look, Cameron, we're in a very difficult position. There's the big resignation, the stock price is in the tank, people are griping at each other, and the division in the world is worse than it's ever been. Frankly, this business of being positive—just think happy thoughts, put a smile on your face—is toxic positivity. It deflects us from what's really relevant. If you could actually show me how this has any relevance to what I'm held accountable for—stock price, productivity, the morale of my people, retention, and so on—I might pay attention. Otherwise, this is just a deflection. It gets in the way."

"So what I've been doing with my own career the last 20 years is asking that question: does this matter at all in terms of bottom-line performance and what people are accountable for—that is, what leaders are accountable for? And the answer so far, with no disconfirming evidence, is absolutely, it matters at the bottom line."

"Now, why does it matter at the bottom line? The theory that has emerged from this research is that every human being, everything alive, is attracted to light and away from dark, or toward positive energy and away from negative energy. In nature, the sun is the source of positive energy—it's the life-giving force. Photosynthesis happens only in the presence of light. Life happens only in the presence of light. Put a seed in the ground, it will grow toward the light. Every living system has a tendency toward positive energy, toward life-giving energy, and away from life-depleting energy. Hundreds of studies have confirmed that's true. Human beings flourish in the presence of positive energy and languish in the presence of negative energy."

"So what are the implications for organisations? It affects your heart rate, brainwaves, vagus nerve—all kinds of physiological activities are affected by positive energy. We've been asking: does it happen in organisations? So far, again, no disconfirming evidence. What we've discovered is if you implement positive practices—an abundance culture, a virtuous culture—you will get, in the profit sector, higher levels of profitability."

"In some cases, five times industry average when we were studying Wall Street firms. Those that implemented positive practices over a two-year period did five times better than the industry average. In healthcare, 30 hospitals—ten times industry average on nine different dimensions. Airline industry and many others. Profitability goes up, productivity goes up, quality goes up—fewer errors, less waste, more efficiency. Innovation goes up—more entrepreneurship, more creativity, more interesting risk-taking. Customer satisfaction and loyalty go up—lifelong loyalty occurs. Employee retention, engagement, satisfaction—all those kinds of things."

"Executives are held accountable for those six outcomes, and those are the six outcomes we've identified as being highly related to, in a causal way. In some of these studies, we intervene and then measure whether you're getting better in terms of positive practices. Over the same two-year period, what happens to outcomes—profitability, productivity, and so on? We're talking about causal relationships, not just 'everyone's happy so we do positive things.' That's not the causal relationship. What we've discovered is significant enhancement."

"So I've become convinced that if you can get people to pay attention—and that's often the single most challenging issue we face, is getting people to pay attention—because it sounds superficial and irrelevant and syrupy, saccharine-sweet, and all those things, but not so. Organisation performance goes up."

"What's also interesting: we just finished a study—twelve different regions in the world, not just the United States. The reason we did this, not including the US, is because people say, 'Well, Australia, the US—okay, Western cultures, it's okay there, but not in the rest of the world.' So, twelve regions in the world—essentially, virtually all the regions in the world. We did two interesting studies. One: we took fourteen professors from fourteen different disciplines—accounting, maths, chemistry, psychology, sociology, healthcare. We exposed them for one full day to positive principles and practices, then asked them to teach the same class next semester, only embedding positive practices. Don't change the content, just embed positive practices."

"At the end of that semester, we tested several things: student satisfaction—10% improvement; grade point average and test scores—almost 10% higher; student attendance—10% higher. In other words, college students responded. And it was not only college students. I have a friend who lived in Bhutan and went to the Bhutan Education Association. In Bhutan, they have a federal Ministry of Happiness. Wouldn't that be great? So, eleven high schools said, 'Okay, we'll implement positive practices.' Nine high schools did not. One year later, they measured student wellbeing—significant improvement over the other group. The eleven high schools were significantly more characterised by student wellbeing."

"They also measured scores on standardised tests—significant improvement in academic performance. Then he measured a year later to make sure it wasn't just a single blip, and it wasn't. That difference stayed significant. Then he went to Mexico—thirty-five high schools in each condition—same result: student wellbeing and academic performance were significantly higher. Then he went to Peru—347 high schools in each condition—again, repeated the results. Marty Seligman did something similar about fifteen years ago. The whole point is: this actually does affect individuals—students—and it translates into organisation performance."

"All these practices, especially in a post-pandemic, conflict-ridden, chaotic environment, are really relevant. Instead of saying, 'I'll put this on the shelf until we solve our problems,' we say, 'No, this is a prescription for handling.' It's not the only prescription, it's not a silver bullet, but I'd put my money there before I'd put my money on other things."

ROSEMARY SAINTY: Mindful of the time and wanting to get as much from you as possible—your latest book looks at positive leadership. You've emphasised the role of virtuousness, creating positive energy. Can you talk briefly on that?

KIM CAMERON: Yes, thank you. The latest book—by the way, I'm so uncomfortable trying to sell a book. I'm not trying to sell a book. I write a book to say something that I don't think has been said before. One of the things that's emerged from my research is the importance of something we refer to as positive leadership.

What is positive leadership? There are lots of different types. We can talk about positively energising leadership—that's the title of the book, "Positively Energising Leadership." There are lots of kinds of energy. One is physical energy, which when I use it, it diminishes—if I run a marathon, I can't do it again. Emotional energy—if I get in an intense interaction or debate, I get exhausted and need recuperation time. Mental energy—the same; that's why we have semester breaks and weekends. We all get tired. The only kind of energy that elevates with use is relational energy.

When do you get exhausted by being around a person with whom you have a loving, supportive relationship? That's renewing. In fact, when we get exhausted in other ways, we often seek out people who can renew us. So the research we do is on relational energy—what happens when I interact with someone? Are they uplifting, elevating, life-giving? Or are they exhausting, depleting, sucking the life right out of you? We measure energy in organisations, and there are lots of interesting findings.

One is that energy in an organisation and hierarchical level are not related. You can be the CEO, the big shot, a senior, or a junior, a new analyst—it doesn't matter. Energy and hierarchical level are not related. Many times, we'll do an analysis and discover that junior-level people are really highly energising, giving life to the system, and often people at the top are sucking the life right out of the system. So having that energy network matters a lot.

Another is that energy is often confused with extroversion or introversion, or personality. It is not. The correlation between energy and extroversion/introversion is essentially zero. You know extroverts who exhaust the rest of us—it's nice to be around you, but boy, I'm exhausted. Not always, of course. We also know introverts who give life and energy to other people; others flourish in their presence. So it's not personality. Positive energy is a set of behaviours—a set of actions that people take, which anyone can learn. Anyone can become a positive energiser; you're not born with it.

Another finding: one way we measure energy in an organisation is by drawing network maps—like the back of an airline magazine, but with people as the nodes. You can connect people on the basis of information flows—who gives information to whom, who gets information from whom. The research is clear: if you're at the hub or centre of an information network, your performance is higher, as is the unit you manage. Another way is influence networks—who influences whom. Again, if you're at the centre, your performance is higher. But here's the surprise: another way to draw a network map is on the basis of energy—who energises whom. Your position in the energy network is four times more important in predicting performance than your position in the information or influence network. We're constantly managing information and influence, but does anyone ever manage energy? Does anyone get rewarded, recognised, hired, or promoted for being a positive energiser? Because it's four times more important in predicting performance than what we normally manage.

Another finding: the best performing organisations have at least three times more positive energisers than normal organisations. Everyone can be one, and you want more of them—it's not just the C-suite. In organisations that flourish, you're constantly trying to develop positive energisers and energising leaders.

ROSEMARY SAINTY: Thank you, Kim. That's a perfect segue to actually hear from some real-life positive energisers. Firstly, Suzy Green herself would definitely be in that category here in Australia and plays a really important role. Kim, we'll come back to you, and I'd like us to also talk about the virtuousness dimension of this. But just to hear from our other panellists and to introduce Suzy a little more thoroughly...

SUZY GREEN: Thanks so much, Rosemary, and thank you so much, Kim. It's always a delight—always inspiring and energising. I've heard you speak so many times now, and I've been really fortunate to observe the POS movement and field evolve since it first launched, and to have many interactions. I think, Kim, when I first had a large POS project at the Reserve Bank—I nearly fell off my chair when I got a call from the Reserve Bank of Australia asking about positive psychology. It was just one department, not the whole RBA, but I reached out to Kim and he very generously shared resources with me, and that was a very successful program. Thank you, Kim, and thanks for joining us today.

I'm also very excited because our two guests, Louise Baxter and Anne Johnston, I've also known for quite a period of time. They're absolute champions in this space—pioneers, exemplars. If I think about positive, energising leaders, Anne and Louise certainly come to mind. So I'm going to start with Louise.

Louise is most well-known as the CEO of the Starlight Children's Foundation. I've been very fortunate to work with Starlight for 10 years now. In fact, they were my very first broader-scale organisational client, and I would argue the first organisation in Australia to take a strategic approach to the application of positive psychological science and positive organisational scholarship. At the Positivity Institute, we've worked really hard over the last 10 years at integrating complementary sciences such as positive psychology, POS org scholarship, coaching psychology—which we really think is the secret sauce in many ways to beneficial outcomes—and appreciative inquiry.

LOUISE BAXTER: Thank you, Suzy and Rosemary, for having me. Great to hear you, Kim. I was rereading one of your older books a few days ago, which is filled with coffee stains and yellow stickies all the way through it. What you're saying really resonates with me, and I also think it's common sense. As human beings, we always want to spend time with people who are positive, happier, who energise you. We try to manage our time with those who maybe drain our energy and are whingy or whiny. Sometimes we have to move into caring mode because they're people who've moved from being happy, positive people, and we need to change that. But as human beings, this just makes so much sense.

Since we have introduced this in a formal way—and we've been about positivity right from the start, over three decades—we have moved every business metric in a positive direction. We've grown: when I first started at Starlight, we were around 65 people; we're now nearly 400 team members. We've grown from supporting 127,000 children in terms of positive experiences delivered, to last year over a million. We're in every children's hospital, in 140 remote Indigenous communities, and we support children. We see the benefits of positive psychology for children in health—so much of what Kim has been talking about is exactly what we see every day.

If we step back, there's one thing I'll say: we were a positive organisation, then we became incredibly focused, because I come from the commercial world and really needed to focus people on alignment to our vision and mission. We need that absolute clarity of purpose. Today, if you speak to anyone, clarity of what we do is important for the organisation, right through to every individual, so they know their role in delivering our impact at Starlight. Clarity of purpose, alignment, and engagement to mission and vision are absolutely critical. You can't have a positive workplace without that—or you can, but it won't be as effective. You won't see the business results you see when you pull all those things together.

We've always been about positivity, and we actually have a vision where we say we want every child to experience a happy childhood, because happiness in childhood is a strong determinant in how you will perform in your education, employment, and long-term healthy life behaviours. A child diagnosed with a serious illness—their ability to be happy and experience those pure moments of joy of childhood is extremely restricted, taken away from them. What we do at Starlight is give back those moments of childhood to a child and young person, which are incredibly important and actually improve their health outcomes.

For us to be an authentic organisation—and I don't use the word virtuous, but I do use the word authentic—my VIA strengths are in zest, teamwork, and honesty. Having honesty through what we do is really important. A decade ago, we made the decision that while we had been in this space for a long time, we needed to formalise it and give our team the tools. We couldn't just be delivering positive experiences for the children and young people we support and the health practitioners we partner with—we needed to do that for our team. We truly did it from the perspective of wanting our team to be their best self in life, knowing that by doing that, they would then bring their best self into Starlight. We did not do this with the vision of making Starlight better—we knew that would be a side effect, but it was about the authenticity of our team having the tools to draw on when they needed to top up their cup.

Having that before the pandemic made Starlight match-fit for what we had to move through in these last three years. We had an environment where trust was the order of the day. I speak about trust as not earned—I think that if you trust your team and your processes, every person who joins your organisation should be 100% trusted from the minute they walk in the door. If you trust people, they do amazing things. We had an organisation where trust existed because of what we've done in the area of positivity. People had tools they could use, and we constantly reminded people to top up their cup.

If we are going to be wonderful leaders and support our team through this time, you have to put yourself first—using the old airline mask analogy: when the plane's going down, you have to put your mask on first, then you can help others. Exactly the same with positivity.

So, from my perspective, this has been a long journey. We were about positivity, but from a program's perspective and a purpose perspective. We needed to get clarity and alignment around that, and then we brought in, a decade ago, the ability for us to work with the Positivity Institute and provide our team with the tools they needed to look after themselves and then care for others—in their life and in their organisation. That's what has made the difference.

Throughout this time, we had to work in very different ways, and it was necessary to constantly communicate that message—as a leader, I just said it, said it again, and said it again, because people were only hearing it for the first time. We also introduced additional ways to support people in this space, but it was really the fact that they had the tools; we had to constantly encourage people to use them, and we had to look out for our team. In team meetings, you'd see someone wasn't particularly engaged or didn't look their normal self, so we encouraged people to go directly to that person or call their manager and have a chat and provide support.

The programs we deliver at Starlight—for me, when I see a child come into a Starlight Express Room (we have physical spaces in our hospitals) and we have a superhero called Captain Starlight (professional performers trained in positive psychology and how to engage with children in a health environment)—when you see a newly diagnosed child come in with their head down, shoulders down, IV drip in their hand, in a wheelchair, and they come into the space and you see them suddenly lift. To see that child 15 minutes later, roaring with laughter, completely forgetting where they are and why—that's the impact of Starlight. That has important health outcomes. Doctors tell us when they're working with our Captain Starlights and using portable echocardiographs to diagnose rheumatic heart disease, the heart is easier to view when Captain Starlight is there because the child is happy and relaxed.

Our journey has been long, but since we moved to this in a formal way and provided everyone the tools, the bottom line has been the impact of that, and every business metric has improved.

SUZY GREEN: Thank you, Louise. The beauty is, as you said, you've been doing this for 10 years or longer—10 years since we first started working with you. There have been so many initiatives. In fact, I was on the World Mental Health Day internal Starlight webinar this week, and there were at least two pages of PowerPoint slides of initiatives that are offered at Starlight to support people. There has been backlash around just providing people with self-care strategies, which is important, but clearly it's not the whole approach when we're talking about workplace mental health and wellbeing. There are so many initiatives. Your recent best self-leave time, Louise—did you want to mention that briefly?

LOUISE BAXTER: Yes, we have one value at Starlight, and that is to shine. We talk about shining for purpose, shining by being exceptional, shining brighter together—so teamwork's really important. To feed into that, we've reviewed our initiatives to support our team and introduced a range of things. One is that we give everyone three best self-days so they can go off and do whatever it is that tops up their cup—French cooking classes, meditation, whatever helps them to be their best.

SUZY GREEN: The other thing I wanted to acknowledge is the investment in your internal capability. Susan Henry, your Head of People and Culture, invested in the Diploma of Positive Psychology with the Langley Group, and Mel Barker, your Positive Psychology Advisor, has a Master's in Applied Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology. That's a really important step forward—you're not relying solely on external consultants but building up your internal capability and really owning it and living it in your own way. That's been one of the secrets to your success as well.

LOUISE BAXTER: You have to invest in this. Your team and your talent add value to your business, and to enable that, you need to ensure you're investing in it. It makes all the sense to us.

SUZY GREEN: Thank you so much, Louise.

Now, I wish we had more time, but I want to move on now. Thank you to the delightful Anne Johnston, who has been a pioneer in this space, in positive education, and is the Principal of Ravenswood School for Girls.

ANNE JOHNSTON: It's an absolute joy to share, and such a privilege to be on the panel with you, Kim and Louise and Suzy and Rosemary and the whole team. Thank you for the opportunity to share.

I thought I would begin by sharing a little about Ravenswood. Ravenswood was founded in 1901, the year our country was federated, and is a Uniting Church girls' school from prep to Year 12, with boarding from Year 7. Our school motto is "Semper ad Meliora"—always towards better things. I think this is such a positive education motto. Our founder, Mabel Fielder, talked about the importance of being an encourager to young students and having a vision for empowering young women—well beyond her time. She said this was not to be a day school for girls about the refinements of needlework, but a school that empowered young women to be the best they could be.

I want to pay tribute to the founder and to the generations of students and alumni that have gone before us, in the present time in our positive education era at Ravenswood.

I joined Ravenswood in 2016, and on my very first day, I had the opportunity to lead an Appreciative Inquiry Summit with the extraordinary staff team—every staff member, teaching, non-teaching, admin, those in the grounds. We explored the question: what would it take for Ravenswood to become a leading positive education school to help young people flourish, be the best they could be, and make a difference in the world?

Ravenswood is all about recognising that academic achievement and wellbeing are inextricably linked—they feed off each other, mutually reinforce each other, and are equally important. Today, we have our students in New South Wales sitting the HSC after three years of a global pandemic. I want to pay tribute to all the students completing school at the moment—they've had three years of a pandemic to navigate through, with the support of teachers everywhere. But our students will need more than their ATAR to thrive, and they're worth so much more than their ATAR. We're passionate about ensuring that, yes, our students have the opportunity to fulfil their academic potential, but that they also understand how to build each other's wellbeing and their own wellbeing. We bring that emotional literacy to the fore through positive education.

We had the opportunity to work with Professor Martin Seligman in 2019—he was our inaugural psychologist in residence at Ravenswood. It was such a blessing to work closely with him, hear from him, share our programs, and have a cluster of schools from the Upper Hunter District work together to share resources and understandings about positive education. We're also the first Visible Wellbeing school in New South Wales, working with Professor Lea Waters on the SEARCH framework. We've had the benefit of amazing experts such as you, Suzy Green, and other leaders in the field.

Ravenswood is fondly referred to as RAVO. When I was studying the Master of Applied Positive Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, I saw the famous "LOVE" sculpture. Inspired by that, we created our own sculpture—RAVO—as an emblem of being a school of sisterly love, highlighting the difference that high-quality connections and caring for one another make. When people visit our campus, they often say there's a warmth here, an atmosphere. Perhaps, Kim, to your point, this is about having together an amazing group of positive energisers who are making a difference to one another and looking beyond themselves.

Like all schools, we also have navigated a very difficult time during COVID-19. Rosemary said at the outset, yes, this was stress-testing positive education. It had been in place since 2016. We believe we were able to really embed a toolkit of strategies, approaches, and a culture that was about wellbeing and making a difference. The last time we gathered before lockdown in March 2020, we were gathering around the word "hope" to raise funds for the bushfires affecting so much of our country. As we moved into physical distancing and isolation, telling our students we had to have them leave the campus and not knowing when we'd come back together, things like this reminded us that we don't know what the future holds, but we know who we are, what we stand for, and what we can do together.

Positive education has made a difference to us, and I can speak for so many delegates who came to the PESA conference—it's making a difference in schools. I had the opportunity to interview a panel of alumni, and they talked about the difference it had made to them. They graduated in 2020 and 2021—graduates during COVID. They said it made an enormous difference. One said, "I just feel so sad that not everyone has the opportunity to learn about this to the same extent in school." Her comment was, "I'm going to dedicate my life to positive education and to making a difference to others." She's studying psychology and wants to move into this space. That ripple effect—not just in our present generation, but generations coming forward—will continue to make a difference in education.

Their ultimate message to us was things like strengths, mindfulness, cognitive reframing, understanding how to build each other's wellbeing during tough times, and the removal of stigma around mental health in schools—as well as help-seeking behaviours when struggling.

SUZY GREEN: There's so many questions I could ask you, Anne, but the one that keeps coming back is the investment in your own personal growth and development as a human being, as a leader. For many years we've spoken about that in leadership training, but it's so easy—it's very busy. How do you carve out the time for your personal growth and development to be the best person and human being you can be?

ANNE JOHNSTON: It's always a juggle—I won't say I've got the balance entirely right all the time. But in the end, it's about making a decision that we're here to make a difference. In order to make a difference, it's about continuous learning and continuous growth, and hopefully being able to set an example, particularly in a school of lifelong learning. That's very important. Also, I want to know that I'm able to make a difference to the field as well. That's what inspired me to complete a PhD. There's so much research that needs to be done—it's a burgeoning field, positive education, so it's worth it. If people's lives are impacted and hopefully positively transformed, then fantastic.

SUZY GREEN: Your PhD is on the other mindset and its role in positive leadership. Many people have heard of fixed and growth mindset, but you're looking at what it takes to foster a wellbeing mindset—a mindset that promotes wellbeing. You're focusing on an "other person mindset," echoing Chris Peterson's words: "Other people matter." What does it take to foster an other person mindset, and does that build the wellbeing not just of those around us, but also of the person who is initiating the wellbeing of others? That's the focus of your research.

[The panel moves to gallery view. Kim Cameron responds.]

KIM CAMERON: There's an old saying: if you can't do it, you teach it. I teach it, and we've just seen two people who are extraordinary in a much more difficult task: applying this, changing lives, making a difference. Their impact will have generational effects—children, their parents, and so on will be affected by what they're doing. I admire them so very much. Positive education has been a real interest of mine for a long time. I'm in awe of those who are changing lives in an educational setting.

Virtuousness as a concept is a broad umbrella. There are lots of ways to approach it. I've measured a variety of virtues—gratitude, compassion, humility, integrity, honesty, trust, and so on. There are eight dimensions I measure. Combined, those are virtuousness. Empirically, it's impossible to identify just one virtue that's more predictive than the others. When those are present in organisations, bottom-line outcomes go up, wellbeing of employees goes up, attachment to the organisation, loyalty, desire to stay goes up—the kinds of things we want, especially in a post-pandemic environment. Instead of being a side trip, virtuousness ends up becoming an answer.

We learned this when we were tiny. There's a study, replicated multiple times, where children aged three to eight months watched a puppet show—one puppet helps, one hinders. More than 90% of the time, children select the puppet that tries to help. From the time we were three months, long before language or socialisation, there's an inherent tendency in human beings to desire virtuous, positive, uplifting behaviour. All we're doing is unlocking human potential that's inherent in all of us.

ROSEMARY SAINTY: We had a discussion yesterday about the role of corporations and how applicable these concepts are in a competitive environment. Kim, you probably have to deal with this when talking about virtuous, positive, energising leadership and POS in general. What would you say to that?

KIM CAMERON: Let me answer with a study. At the University of Michigan, a colleague took entering freshmen and asked them to identify their goals for the year. She categorised goals into two types: achievement goals (I want to be popular, get good grades, etc.) and contribution goals (I want to make a difference, have something get better because of what I've done). Some people are dominated by one type, some by the other. She followed these students for a year, measuring social, physical, and academic factors. On every single dimension, contribution goals were more predictive of outcomes than achievement goals.

Translating that into organisations: those focused solely on achievement are not as successful over time as those who focus on contribution—making a difference, having something get better because of what they've done. Contribution trumps achievement.

Another study: multiple sclerosis patients—half assigned to place a phone call once a week expressing love, support, and concern to someone else; half assigned to receive such a call. Two years later, those who placed the call were eight times healthier than those who received it. Contribution trumped achievement by a factor of eight. Meaning and purpose matter a lot; it trumps the kinds of things that dominate executives' mindsets.

ROSEMARY SAINTY: Louise, someone has asked: wha